The Survivor: LoAn Nguyen, MD

[0:17] Paging dr. cook paging dr. cook dr. Kirk you’re wanted in the o.r. dr. KO.

[0:24] Music.

[0:47] Hello everyone and welcome to prescription for Success I’m dr. Randy cook your host for the podcast which is a production of MD coaches.
Providing leadership and Executive coaching for Physicians by physicians to overcome burnout transition your career.
Develop as a leader or whatever your goal might be visit empty coaches on the web at my MD coaches.com.
Because you’re not in this alone.

[1:16] My guest today left her native Vietnam as a teenager three days before the fall of Saigon and 1975 she was educated both in the United States and Europe.
Before beginning a 27-year career in primary care with Mid-Atlantic Kaiser Permanente group so.
Let’s hear dr. Lou on Nguyen tell her story.

[1:39] Music.

[1:44] Terrific pleasure it is for me today to be speaking with Doctor of the wand win.

[1:50] The one I know that you are located in the Mid-Atlantic area but I can’t really tell from your CV what city you’re located in right now so share that with us
yeah I live in Vienna Virginia which is right outside the Beltway to Washington d.c.
So you’re right in the thick of it right yes
well we’re really happy to have you here today you have such a fascinating story I think and I’m so grateful that you have agreed to speak with us many times on prescription for Success we.

[2:26] Sort of begin the story at the point where a person begins their medical education but in your case,
I think the story that predates your medical education is really compelling and I would like for you to share that with us I know that you were part of a large
number of people who escaped from Vietnam around 1975 I happen to
remember that you’re a very well I was actually a medical student,
watching people hanging onto the skids of helicopters and trying to get out of Saigon so
pretty special for me to be able to speak with someone who has been there but let’s go back even a little further than that obviously you grew up.
In Vietnam tell us a little bit about what your childhood was like and if you experienced any.

[3:24] Dreams at that point that someday that you would be a physician what was it like being a child during a terrible time in our history
yes I am I grew up doing the war my parents are were from the north,
and as you remember in 1954 where there was a Geneva agreement that the country was divided in two.
What’s a Vietnam was Communist and the South would be Republic,
and my parents were very intimately aware of what what is was like to live under communism
so they decided that to emigrate South to have in a free environment to bring up their children
and so when they immigrated South with very little asset with them my parents were not educated they were part of a village.

[4:25] In the north my father was imprisoned by Viet me as you remember being fought the French or
so he experienced what Viet mean who would later become communist the life would be like and when they move South they settle in a small village in the central part of the country called a lot.
I don’t know you for know what they are doing to geography there I did take the opportunity to check that out on the Google and it appears to be today,
a very pleasant little village that attracts some tourists and even some American immigrants but I’m much more interested to know what life was like they are.
Yeah alive.

[5:11] Yeah so so I was born in in Saigon and when they immigrated self they started with Saigon and they moved South to the to do lat.
And I was about maybe six months old when we moved there and so I grew up in a very rural poor area of a village where they settle about 40 North Vietnamese families.
So they make everything from their hands.

[5:38] Wow they built houses for each other and it’s like a community of just North Vietnamese who Settles.

[5:45] So I grew up in that very Carefree environment out of the woods are my playground and the the the forest is where I enjoy games with friends.
So I would just like to make sure I understand it sounds like that
a fair number of people in the village of dalat were there for exactly the same reason that your family watches are right correct
that’s correct we also was at that we all call sounds immigrants even though we’re same people that everyone escaped the north to go south.
And so I grew up there until we were not touched by the war of initially in that Village.

[6:27] Until the Tet Offensive in 1968 and the war came to us that was a big deal.
That was a huge deal for us the young people that are hearing this podcast or.
Probably not even aware of that but the the Tet Offensive was
sort of the beginning of the end I think for the Republic of South Vietnam but go ahead I’m sorry I apologize for interrupting oh no I think it’s nice to have someone who understand and they have some visual of that era.
So in 1968 when the Tet Offensive we were bombed we were we were shot at and my family had to leave everything we own.
In the village which was in a whole lot but it was everything that we owned and so we moved to downtown of dalat which is what you saw on the internet so I was.

[7:20] 13 12 13 years old at the time.
And that was the first time that I felt the war really was really close by my my backyard,
and so we live to a period of time where nighttime is the the North,
the called Vietcong of VC will come to the village and will demand this or that.
And during the daytime the South Vietnamese soldiers were comments at who did you talk to last night so what we caught between the two sides are quite a bit.
So the war really touch us around 1967.
But the real the real big impact was 1968 the Tet Offensive which is the end of 1967 beginning of 68
and so we moved to Boulder into town where I continue with my high school.

[8:16] Bad time as you can imagine because the war we have neighbors that would go to will go to battle will go to Military and get killed.
I have two uncles one was killed and one was missing an action.
He went toward for campaign and never came back the one died I apologize for the interruption but I am curious to know in this area
where you initially lived were you aware or do you think your family was aware of who were the
potential communist sympathizers I’m sure there must have been some people in town that were okay with being a part of the bigger Vietnam but I’m wondering
was there
talk about town with your rumors around about who you could trust or who you couldn’t trust or was it just a matter of uncertainty who were where you didn’t really know where you could be safe.

[9:13] Yeah that’s a very interesting question so in in the village where I was up until ten offensive everyone
was against communism haha we escaped them to come so that was a very.
I could say say that is pretty sure 90% or 99% sure that these are people are not going to be sympathizers but when I moved to talat
to the town in my circles and in the neighborhoods are a man
I can’t think of anyone that I would think the be sympathizers know
when the war ended after the war ended I’ve learned from,
my friends my car my colleagues in high school that some of our teachers will actually sympathizers wow but there was no way that we have any inkling any idea that they were.

[10:05] So let’s get back to your education so I went to high school and during high school year this is how the germination of medicine came in terms of me,
I was a very curious kid I I would read.
And I would look for information by going to library in books and
the access was very limited but I was very curious about if someone said to me that I have
medical concern I will go look it up and see what do they have so that was my curiosity more than anything didn’t even think about being a physician being
because in my circle of my family I have a huge sixth ended family and I’m the first of the three that gaunt went to college
that’s interesting so very very little education in within the family and then I in my I think in my.
Ninth grade I decided that I had TB
you decided I decided that I had to be based on what I read I decided that I had to be icy so I came to my father and I said I heard that there was a clinic that was arranged by missionary.

[11:23] Medical mesh Mission people that came to a clinic would you take me there.
And to make sure I didn’t have TB as I would my dad humor me and said you don’t look that sick to me but I said please just please take me
and so we went to the clinic we left like 5:00 in the morning we got there by 7:00 and bicycle by the way and then as I was watching people coming into the clinic
many of them had to be carried into the clinic.
And many was just wrapped themselves in a lot of blankets and just looks so sick and it touched me deeply I don’t know why.
It just touched me very deeply and then by my turn came to see the doctor and he was just so kind and so.

[12:16] I don’t know what it was just he has an aura of.
For kid at that age he has just a God or up of curing and helping people.

[12:27] And I thought came to my head at the end of the visit.
I said to myself I wonder what it’s like to do that kind of work
hi I’m Rhonda Crow founder and CEO Forum D coaches here on RX for Success we interview a lot of great medical professionals on how they grew their careers
how they overcame challenges and how they handle day-to-day work I really hope you’re getting a lot of great information.

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[13:41] We’ll get back to our interview in just a moment but right now I want to tell you a little bit about physician Outlook
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[14:44] And now let’s get back to today.

[14:46] Music.

[14:51] I’ve talked to a number of people who like you.

[14:56] Got their inspiration from being a patient and and interacting with medical professionals.

[15:03] Yeah because I was from a very poor family.
In medical school when I finished College I passed my baccalaureate degree exam with really high score and so.
I thought about medical school applying to medical school I came to my parents and they said you know we can’t afford
we used to go to Saigon to study so what is your next choice and
and I said well I guess I could go to become a teacher so I enroll in the University of dalat we’re in my hometown.

[15:44] So I start enrolling in 1974.

[15:49] Right after high school in the doing that year is in April of that year is when the South Vietnamese government started to fall
as you remember the Communist military people
started to take one city one by one starting from the north and down to the South I remember vividly right the lad was right in the middle of between South and and central part of the country.

[16:16] Believe it or not I was actually,
employed as a radio announcer during those years and I actually read that news over American radio yeah yeah and and so because of that when it came close to the lat,
without my family innocently thought my mother and father physically thought well perhaps a country we can’t divide it again and so
so why don’t we go south the further south so we went back down this icon to be with my relative and then in April that she as you can see that on TV that it was the fault of the South government was imminent
and I was at I lost my family was about lost what will become of us sorry you were held at that point
okay I had a cousin who married to an American GI and they were stationed in Guam this is a magic of the story they so my cousin
I had a mother and a brother inside Ghana the time.

[17:23] And somehow she her husband was able to connect with the American Embassy and they said they got they call my cousin
my mom my aunt and my cousin and said we need to take you and get you out of the country
because you are affiliated with American American having American family in America
we need to get you out and so give me a list of people that you need to get out and my cousin who was like a brother to me thought of me and another cousin so he jotted
his name his mother’s name and my name and my other cousins name and so,
the next morning he came to my mother and father and said this is the only chance that for me to get out so I have to leave the country but I also
have your Lawns name on the list to leave the country would you let her go
with in an instant my parents had of course she needs to go because she is so interested in education and with the commonest came there’s no way that she can continue with her education
oh my goodness that must have been.

[18:35] It was scary I just can’t imagine what your parents must have been feeling and what you want you must have been feeling so that she came to our place where we stay
they said you have two hours to decide how come back in 2 hours to pick her up if that’s what you decide
and my first reaction was how could I leave my family I never even knew anything other than my family of course so.

[19:02] And my parents said
they explained that they said you have to go because we know how much you love to study little love to learn and that will be the end if you stay
and two is that if you go we have some hope and you may be able to help us somehow in the future I have I’m the oldest of seven children
and so they said your your siblings will be looking for help down in the future maybe you the only one that can help us.
So with that reasoning I said okay I’ll go what an amazing story amazing.
So into our than two hours I got picked up with at that time as you imagined people running to the the embassy
which looking for a way to leave the country and people who drive to the coast looking for a way to leave the country so I got picked up by a unmarked bus
that basically piss dark they just poop you in take you to the airport and so I left with my cousin my aunt and my other cousin
which day at the airport that was April 27 which is 3 days before the actual fall of the government.

[20:20] That’s a pretty close call it was if that’s why my town was desperate to convince me to go since I had my kids and take took them to college at Cedar Point and I just.
Not back on it it says I just cannot imagine how Brave my parents were.
To put me on a bus I had no idea where I was going where I would end up and what will happen to me just hope to trust in God that somehow I will be taken care of.
That is so incredible that your parents even
we’re able to process that that was unquestionably going to be the best thing for you and the you would be the hope for everyone else that was it says a lot for their wisdom and their ability to make tough choices.

[21:08] Yeah for sure for sure I don’t think I could do that well what they did what’s next then.
So we we were at the airport for several hours and then in the middle of the night.
A cargo airplane landed.
And then we just got swooped into the cargo airplane everyone sat on the the floor of the airplane and this was in Saigon where you were picking yeah intensive that Tanzania Airport.

[21:40] And we flew to Subic Bay that was the first time ever in my life that I saw the ocean never been to the ocean before.
And it was one of the airplane landed is was quite a an emotional.
Response to me and I thought my family is an ocean away and I’m here by myself it was just incredible I can’t imagine.
But and then we stay at Subic Bay which is one of the military installation I think for about 2 days.
I have some English in high school so I could hear simple conversations and could pick out words and sort of guess at it.

[22:25] But speaking was out of the question so I did not I did not speak English at all and and then we stay in Guam.
A month in the refugee camp Camp.

[22:38] And after month my cousin and his family stayed behind in Guam and I went with the refugee I asked them to just let me go with the refugee,
because there may be some hope for me with the government help too.
Really got my goal set to go study I would work I would get a job anything that I needed to do to continue my education but that was my.
Only goal in life that was a pretty brave decision for you as well I just felt that my I had to fulfill what my parents wanted me to do and that is to pursue it my education.

[23:19] I thought there were opportunities to get a job and just get sponsored and get a job but I said.

[23:28] As long as I could get a job and go to study then I would do it but just get a job alone is just not what I would do
so my eyes I talked with my cousin did not want me to leave obviously but I said to her I said look you can’t help me go to school so I would like to ask look for opportunities to do it so let me go
so I went to the refugee camp and gods
went to Indiantown Gap which is another camp in Pennsylvania as you probably remember.
And stay there from May the end of May to September so doing that time I started to learn English,
and the way I went about learning English was I went to the headquarter of the refugee camp and asking.
Them to let me,
how do whatever that clean or whatever they have to do just as long as I’m surrounded with American speaking English speaking people.

[24:31] So I can learn so your Mastery of English used the immersion yes method so to speak
Spencer it’s really fascinating that what they assigned me to work with a lady named Jane I don’t know who I don’t remember her last name I never knew her last name Jane was easiest to remember so I work with Jane
and what I did was I she asked me to file
um so I could read so I could file just be her assistant and putting files in place for her.

[25:05] I could follow simple instructions and file do the filing for her and she asked me what would you like to do what where would you like to be resettled
and my answer was always the same as long as I find a place that I can go to school and that’s what my place.

[25:23] And so I waited and waited and every day my friends will be leaving the camp people I know would leave the camp and I was thinking
oh my God am I going to be the last one again because I couldn’t find that opportunity but finally in September
it was a Lutheran Church that near Juniata College in Pennsylvania and he said well you know what,
the college could use some students so he’s bounced from me to come to Juniata College to start,
my education I want to interrupt you for just one moment Juniata is a very small school
yes but it is also a highly regarded school they ranked way up in the numbers of students that go on to graduate school and there’s some fairly famous
graduates from the air in addition to you and.
That just happened to be a spot that was available and and you were ready at the time
yes tell us about your experience there this is
about America that I love so I got to Juniata College and the next day I got called to the Dean’s office and the dean I did not understand much of what he said.

[26:43] But all I could understand was that I did not have money and it’s a as a private college and so therefore I couldn’t stay.

[26:52] At the college and I I just I left his office and just in tears and said
he said to me State College is a is a public school
cheaper is a 30 miles north of here perhaps you can go there so that was his words that’s very interesting I don’t know if you were even aware but Juniata was actually established by a group of anabaptists which is a different
group of.

[27:18] Christians and in its in the beginning it was there for the purpose of educating students who had no Financial Resources,
it’s right so you you couldn’t stay because of lack of resources but not awake but wait and so somehow.
My story that does my situation my plight was unknown to a professor,
his name was Cornelius writers whose a Dutch men.
Who was a refugee during WWII himself and somehow he heard about the situation I don’t know how and who told him but he came to my Aid.

[28:03] And he said we have to do something to help you we cannot send you to say college you would hear you belong here I’m gonna help I’m going to try to figure out how to help you so he,
set down one weekend he type 40 letters that time there’s no there’s there’s no emails and you can send so he said he type up 40 letters and he sent to 40 churches
in the community of Huntingdon Pennsylvania.
And the response was overwhelming so all the churches put in there whatever donation they had.
It cover me for my first trimester at Juniata College my goodness that’s how I started and so in the meantime I,
started to work first trimester I could not enroll in any classes because my English was not good enough so I would take
math classes physics and math that required very little English.
Good start for a medical education yeah so so and learn English so I started with Sesame Street.

[29:18] And and then I graduated to soap operas.
Very good and that’s I learnt that’s how I learn about American culture firsthand is you know that’s not a bad place to learn.
Now the dialogue right ending and learning how people respond the idioms of people use in their speaking,
because a reading I was able to read with the law,
with the dictionary but I’ll speaking and how the dialogues happen I was very different,
so so so that’s that’s how I started and then the second year my English is a little bit better so I dipped into.
A class in education.
Because I thought I could become a teacher here and then I started taking chemistry because I always was curious about nature and how things work in the Bible in the body.

[30:19] And so I took chemistry and I was really captivated by chemistry and then I met with a
chemistry professor that was her first year at Junior College so we she would ask me a lot of questions I will tell her about what I’m doing and she basically became my mentor
that’s a fascinating story I you don’t run into a lot of people who claim they were fascinated by freshman chemistry and yet you felt right at home.
Yeah I did I really I’ve just totally captivated I would take biochemistry and I just could not have enough of linenger
I read linenger cover to cover and just just enjoy learning and so,
and my some I was talking with my friend Ruth read my professor and I told her about.

[31:16] My life in Vietnam and I told about the German nation that I had with that clinic episode and how I thought about medicine and that was just a wish.
And she said to me.
You know opportunities here in America a wish can come true if you work at it
and so she’s sort of told me that I could I said but
culturally I’m not I’m not really Savvy enough to deal with people and so how would I how would I do that and she said.
You know you can if you can come to Vietnam and hear and Excel in
I’m college and chemistry you can do anything I’d go along with it and thank you and so she encouraged me to keep it green
and so I actually took the MCAT in my junior year
brave enough to do it and needless to say my assign score was high and my.

[32:24] Mobile score was in the basement and so but at that time my father passed away from an illness,
and so my mother would six children needed help what are your parents still in Vietnam at that time yes I see my family was a was in Vietnam so I asked truth and say what kind of.
Job can I get up to college to make money to send home to my mother and my siblings and and so I said.
Ruth what do you think about med tech I could do Medtech right and Ruth laughed at me and said Over My Dead Body but you would go to med tech,
so
she um she came to me and she said here are some graduate schools that you can enroll in and graduate school sometimes give p as a student stipends so that you could save some of that money and sent home.
And very fortunately the exchange rate was so tremendous.
That I could send home a hundred to two hundred dollars a month and they could live comfortably wow so she said here are some black locations filled it out so.
I didn’t know what graduate school was and what that was about I knew about PHD programs but I didn’t know what that meant and how would I.

[33:54] How would I do something like that is just beyond my comprehension.

[33:58] A pH become a having a PhD under my belt and she said just fill it out and I’ll pay for the application fee and as a result of that I got accepted by Johns Hopkins
chemistry Department.
Too good for my graduate school what now I’m not exactly I’m not surprised at all that you were accepted to graduate school considering how what a dedicated student that you are
but correct me if I’m wrong there was a gap in there where you were not actually in this country is that.
Yes yes yes that’s right so that’s another story on his own we want to hear it okay so um in 1981 of my in my dorm I do in my sophomore year
Junior decided to have a exchange student program but you know Tunis as a very liberal arts school and they want to bring in other
people from different culture to the campus to enrich the of the,
now we call it diversity protect the diversity of the update on campus so they have an exchange program where students to students from Juniata would go to France
and then to student from fans will come at Juniata.

[35:16] And at that time I should say that in my first year in college I did not hear from my family and my family did not hear from me
we had no idea where we were and my mother and my father knew that I was living because I was able to send a letter to a very distant relative in France.
And she would then open it up send put in a French envelope and send it to Vietnam as though I was living in France,
wow that’s that’s what the communication that I had with my family so when I heard about this program I said.

[35:54] Wow maybe this is not an opportunity so I in my sophomore year I took a year of French
and at the end of the year I was there were no other students that wanted to do that so the caller said okay you can go so I went to France to study at
a chemical engineering school,
in allele in northern France and as far as acquiring the language did you have some experience with French because of the previous French influence in Vietnam or were you was it just totally new to you.

[36:28] I had some for two years of high school French doing in my high school I did study French book for about 2 years.
Maybe an hour every couple weeks of French I just basic French.
But at that point it was a Vietnamese to French translation but when you went to France on the exchange program did it become an English French,
a translation or were you still going from Vietnamese to French I still went from Vietnamese to French and maybe some somewhere in between English to French.
I have fleas are switches in my head that’s amazing I’m sorry to interrupt please go in so like the the classes will all in French.
But fortunately our chemistry was a computers and math were all in universal language.
So I was able to get by and learn to coronary French in between.

[37:30] What a story alright well I’ll let you get back to your pursuit of the PHD at this point and I apologize for this but this so this is really fascinating
so when I came back to the to put Junior College I enroll in at Johns Hopkins.

[37:47] That’s where I met one of my classmates will become my husband see.
Four years later and as he finished a year ahead of me.
And I had I was writing it riding up my dissertation,
and we were about to get we got we were about to get married and we sat down and
which think about going to academic postdoc academic and and all of that planning for both of our careers.

[38:19] And the medicine just kept turning in my head.
So I told him I said well there’s another option that I could think about medicine again and then I said but oh no that’s too hard
II don’t think I could go to that after all this work to get it to get to get my PhD.

[38:43] And he’s the one that actually not to me to say he said you know that is your dream for so long if you don’t apply now that means never.

[38:53] And you always look back and say what if.
Wow you’re very fortunate to have had the right person to encourage you at every critical step along the way and I think that’s really fascinating particularly when you were at a point
where you are actually using your status as a student to make money that you could send home to your family.
Yeah I think I ate I felt so lucky I feel so incredibly lucky that I think feel like I have all the stars or lined up to help me.

[39:26] Agreed and I’m so thankful and grateful for this country to give me that opportunity that I would never,
never think that I could realize otherwise well having heard what I’ve heard I think you could survive
pretty much anywhere but let’s get back to the story of getting you into medical school
so I applied so I went I took I I did I bought a Biology book
and I start studying biology after I decided that I’m going to take the MCAT again so I did well and I got accepted to Maryland University
and that’s why I enroll in 1984 and now the.
The question that I asked everybody I speak to a lot of Physicians who grew up.
Dreaming of becoming a physician but many times when they got to medical school it wasn’t exactly what they were expecting so I’m fascinated to know how it felt to you at that point.

[40:34] I have to say the first two year was tough the first two years was all about cramping for exam I have in my life
I like the reason things out I like to.
Logically figure things out memorization was not my forte at all so I struggle with Anatomy it was really really hard for me as a subject matter.
But I said.

[41:08] Yeah more than this there’s more than class work there are human beings out there there are people out there that patients out there so I pushed on.
And then I’ll build you and forth here oh my God is like,
it was incredible I just can’t I couldn’t describe to you what it felt like to have a stethoscope in my neck and the people that goes up,
somebody needs my help what a great story the one I have to say you you.
I’m sure you do feel uncommonly blessed considering the.
The obstacles that you were there were in your way from the beginning but you certainly showed that they can be overcome and I have no doubt that you have been an incredible.
Blessing to every patient and every.
Student that you’ve come in contact through the years and I’m just going to go right out there on a limb and say that the world is clearly better because you were part of it and thank you for that
and I want to thank you for taking the time to be on prescription for Success today
we’ve reached the point in the program that I like the best and that is when I get out of the way and let the let the guests do the talking.
So I’m going to pause for a moment and close my mic and dr. Luan Nguyen is going to share her prescriptions for success.

[42:37] Thank you so.
Like everyone in medicine I have been keenly aware of the burnout phenomenon especially among primary care physicians.
There are many factors contribute to that part of my coping is to find Brazilians with from within.

[42:55] Adversity has helped me realize my potential that did not know that I had.

[43:00] Another strategy I have is to have some degree of self-compassion mitigating self-criticism instead of cultivate a mindset of life.
Is a Learning Journey in terms of teamwork I found it helpful to create a team culture that help me.
Maintaining and making an effort to even enhancing human connections while leveraging Technologies.

[43:25] To pull by how high quality of care for my patients I also think having a mentor or mentors.
Has been invaluable along my journey they helped create a safe space for me to reflect on my own feelings and thoughts.

[43:41] Last but not least my family life has been a pillar of my well-being they provide safe happy and renewal space for me.
At work I have a second family that supports me in providing care for patients.

[43:56] Keeping my two families in Balance has allowed me to thrive thank you.
Well dr. lawn when I don’t know how to thank you enough for taking the time to be with us today and.

[44:09] Sharing your story it’s been a great inspiration for me and I’m sure it’s going to be a great inspiration for
our listeners as well before we go I want to give you an opportunity to tell the audience where they can find you if you wish to be found sure you can reach me at a lawn Loa n.t,
like in Thomas .n t uy e n 20 at gmail.com again one.

[44:35] Start TDOT blin.
20 at gmail.com well doctor Lawanda wind it has been a great pleasure speaking with you and I thank you so much for being with us.

[44:47] Thank you so much dr. cook and I Randy I really appreciate the opportunity.

[44:53] Thank you so much for joining us today as always we really appreciate a review from you and a five star rating helps us a lot,
these ratings give our show more visibility
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Success on speakpipe special thanks to Ryan Jones who created and performs our theme music for the show and remember be sure to fill your prescription for success with mine next.

[45:42] Music.