Dr. McCulloch graduated from the Medical College of Virginia/Virginia Commonwealth University, Program in Physical Therapy in 1972. Following graduation, he was commissioned as a Lieutenant JG in the United States Public Health Service and stationed at the Manhattan Outpatient Clinic. After four years of service, he was transferred to the USPHS Marine Hospital in New Orleans, where he served as Deputy Chief of Physical Therapy. Upon leaving the service in 1979, Dr. McCulloch joined the faculty of the physical therapy program at Louisiana State University and was soon asked to open a branch campus at the Medical Center in Shreveport, LA.
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He rose through the academic ranks to become professor and chair of the Department of Physical Therapy for the Shreveport and New Orleans campuses and later the inaugural Dean of the School of Allied Health Professions at LSU Health in Shreveport. He retired from LSU in 2018, following 38 years of service, and was awarded the distinction of Dean Emeritus.
Dr. McCulloch was originally trained in the management of musculoskeletal conditions, but during his tenure with the US Public Health Service, he developed an affinity for the management of individuals with wounds secondary to vascular compromise and insensitivity. It was his work with individuals with Hansen’s disease, and those with venous insufficiency ulcers, that led him to embark on a research path and clinical specialization in wound management.
In 1996, Dr. McCulloch became one of the first health professionals to obtain multidisciplinary specialization by the then American Academy of Wound Management (now American Board of Wound Management – ABWM). He later served on the board of directors of the ABWM, and for 10 years as the Examination Chair. In 2013, he was appointed the inaugural chairman of Board of Trustees of the ABWM Foundation. Dr. McCulloch remains active in semi-retirement by serving as a faculty member of the University of Montana Physical Therapy Program where he teaches the integumentary content, as well as serving as an adjunct faculty member at the Western Carolina University Program in Physical Therapy. Whenever possible, he enjoys cooking, painting, working in the shop and traveling. He particularly relishes any time he can spend at the family retreat in Flat Rock, NC.
Dr. McCulloch’s Prescription for Success:
Number 1: Follow your passion.
Number 2: Get engaged with your national organizations, and colleagues. Hear about the most recent developments first-hand.
Number 3: Be a Perpetual Learner.
Connect with Dr. McCulloch
Website: Wound Care Certification
Email: Joseph.McCulloch@lsuhs.edu
LinkedIn: Joseph McCulloch
Notable quotes from Dr. McCulloch’s interview:
We developed all of these programs that developed over, and this has now become a significant component of practice.
To actually heal a Venus Ulcer via compression… We did the first case study on that.
I’d rather be looking at this from the inside than the outside… Let me stick with it.
You’d be amazed at the quality of questions submitted. They were just horrendous. People, including teachers, just don’t know how to write test questions.
If I can come away from a meeting and say I’ve learned one thing new, then that meeting has been worthwhile for me.
Be a perpetual learner. I just can’t learn enough about things.
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Transcript
[0:00] Stuff on The Cutting Edge is so important hearing the people that are doing the work right now talk about what they’re doing the problems are encountering how they plan to solve it cetera getting involved outside of your profession.
[0:15] Music.
[0:20] Paging dr. cook paging dr. cook dr. Kirk you’re wanted in the o.r. dr. KO your.
[0:28] Music.
[0:50] Hello everyone and welcome to prescriptions for Success I’m dr. Randy cook your host for the podcast.
Which is a production of the empty coaches providing leadership and Executive coaching for Physicians by physicians.
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Develop as a leader or whatever your goal might be visit MD coaches on the web at my MD coaches.com because you’re not in this alone.
[1:19] And don’t forget see any credit is available when you listen with us just look for cmf,
in the show notes to learn how my guest today recently retired after 38 years of service at Louisiana State University in Shreveport.
Where he chaired the department of physical therapy and eventually became the inaugural dean of the school of Allied Health Professions.
So let’s hear my conversation with dr. Joe McCullough so I want to welcome everyone to prescriptions for Success I’m really looking forward to the conversation.
[1:57] Today because we have not only an interesting guest as always but I’m having an opportunity to speak to an old friend so dr. Joe McCulloch thanks so much for being here and welcome to
prescription for Success it’s my pleasure and thank you for having me
well I hope to have a lot of fun and learn some things about you that I didn’t already know not that I haven’t had plenty of opportunities to.
[2:21] To know plenty but what we want to do as always Joe is sort of talk about your career.
Trajectory I know that when I was about to say you grew up in Sumter South Carolina but I don’t know that to be the case did you or did you merely graduate from high school there,
no I am from Sumter it’s been my first 18 years there before going off to college alrighty so you and you began your college career at University of South Carolina correct and it looks like from my research that you,
had your eye on physical therapy from the very beginning is that right.
[3:00] I kind of did I started out in high school I knew I wanted to do something in the health careers and I very much wanted to work,
so closely with people helping people so I started volunteering and I volunteered for several years as a high school student in the hospital in every Department I could get into and I.
[3:23] Ran across physical therapy at that time but it wasn’t until my my aunt who lived in Morganton North Carolina.
When I graduate from high school she informed me of a summer position that was available at a center for developmental disabilities up in the Morganton area.
And she told me I should apply she was always pushing me to go to college and all of this I was the first person in my family too,
to make it to college so I applied for the job in a physical therapy department and got it and so I spent two summers as it turned out working in the Western Carolina Center and Morganton
with these children that were fascinating to me I knew nothing about,
developmental disabilities at that time I knew nothing really about physical therapy and learned a great deal so I decided to pursue that as a career path.
I want to take an opportunity to answer a question that I expect a lot of people have because the.
[4:23] Pathway to a career in physical therapy has changed a good bit over the last 30 years or 30 years 30 maybe 40 years or so and.
[4:35] At the time that you made that decision was it.
[4:39] To your course of study to get certified as a physical therapist or were they in the three-year period tell us where you were,
nope and that back when I went back in the early 70s it was you had two years of college prerequisites and then you went to physical therapy school for the final two
and then clinical rotations but I said it was a bachelor’s degree back then and then.
Moved into Masters and now it’s the mandatory doctoral degree so you did your two years at USC and then you moved on to Medical College of Virginia for your correct for your last two years is that right what what.
[5:15] Brought about that decision it was primarily driven by the fact that South Carolina at that time did not have a physical therapy school and they had worked out an agreement with Virginia that they would take,
they limited number of students because it was only 30 students in a class back,
and I happened to be one of those lucky no one else in South Carolina applied mcz that year so,
luckily I got in and it was a miracle because you always said being in physical therapy education all these years that I could never have made it into the.
Profession if I had to go through the standards we have nowadays it’s just.
No it’s a real challenge for students wanting to pursue this career path nowaday because,
it’s there’s just so limited number of positions available and highly competitive knowing your level of intellect as I do I have a feeling that you’re underselling yourself a little bit but I appreciate you,
clearing that up so at that point you’re qualified to begin a.
Career as a physical therapist but yet you wound up.
[6:23] Joining not really a branch of the military but something close what what was it that sent you to New York City.
[6:30] Well I was when I graduated in 1972 we had that military obligation for the Vietnam War you bet you and
I was deferred oh yeah I was deferred all the years I was in college but when I graduated well actually it was it was very strange when I was on my clinical rotations I,
got a call to go from my physical and I would I would tell them I’ll be happy to but I’m not an,
you know I’m not in Richmond anymore I’m in Greenville South Carolina on a clinical can I have it moved to Greenville and so they said sure and they
you know move me to Greenville will by the time it got through the government paperwork to get it moved to Greenville I had been moved on to Charleston West Virginia for a rehab rotation so I told him well I’m not in Greenville and so after
the second time of that they said you’re just trying to avoid the draft your now.
[7:23] Automatically 1A and subject to the next call no kids so oh yes they weren’t playing around well you know my heart dropped and I bet it did
you know I graduated from from PT school and passed my boards and a gentleman in Jackson Mississippi hired me
to come and work in this private practice which at that time he was offering me a thousand dollars a month which
holy canteen 72 was amazing money I’m So yeah so I said okay but I told him about this draft obligation he says well we’ll work with you to get into the National Guard or something so I got down there and
sure enough I took the test for the Air National Guard and.
[8:04] They told me I qualified to do whatever I wanted to do in the National Guard and and first of all I didn’t want to go in to begin with but I had applied to,
the Navy and to Public Health for commissions and I got within a
one week period I got a letter from the Navy telling me I had been commissioned in the US Navy and then the next week I got one from the Public Health Service tell me I’ve been commissioned in the public health service so I had a choice to make and Public Health,
was a much more interesting environment for me just because it was not military really and you only went into the military service and absolute War.
Which case you’d go into the Navy but so I turned down the Navy commission and my roommate that time actually took it.
And what was so funny about that is my college roommate from PT school was already in the Navy and he got a notice that I was showing up
you know to be stationed at his at his base and so he was looking forward to me arriving wow another friend walks in the door,
but I did get the Public Health commission nice thing about public health is they commissioned you at one rank higher than the Navy.
[9:18] So I went in there as a lieutenant JG and.
It was all uphill from there that was the most amazing experience of my life you know a little South Carolina boy when they told me I was going to be stationed in New York City I said I didn’t really care because I was really ready to get out of.
Where was it the time and
so I went up there and boy did my eyes open what an experience that was to see the city and the type of practice we had you know we basically had an independent practice back in the 70s
you know where that’s just happening in the last decade here and all around the states and so,
you know physical therapist love being their Physicians not so much you know they would rather have been out in their private practices or doing other things so they just kind of,
set everything to us you know we took care of anything musculoskeletal at the time and that’s really where I got my first exposure to wounds.
[10:19] I had a,
patient come in with a diagnosis of Hansen’s Disease which I had no clue what that was so I quickly did some research and realize that was leprosy and so I’m like wait a minute I’m going to audition
and this is why you were in New York yes I’ll be doing as the Public Health Service is
provides care for the Hansen’s of these patients of course one of their beneficiaries so I quickly learned that I was not
you know subject to getting leprosy from this individual and
I was just amazed by the disease process and so much of what I learned at that time and then later when I transferred to New Orleans help me in managing persons with insensitivity and since they foot and all of that yeah that would certainly.
[11:04] Sort of explain your rather intense interest in wound care as the years,
went by and and you actually used those years I gather to get some more education that’s where you got your master’s degree at right yes I did
while I was in New York I had the opportunity through the GI bill to work on my masters at night at NYU so I finished up.
Finished up there in my masters and right after I finish my masters and turned in my Master’s thesis my major Professor is just a real go-getter to this day she’s just the Dynamo she.
When I got down to New Orleans and moved into my apartment my dissertation my thesis was sitting on my doorstep with all her Corrections no the note wow get this turned around and back to me and two weeks or something that’s like gosh I didn’t get a chance to breathe,
so yeah I got I got about taken care of there and then I started my doctoral studies while in New Orleans yeah and got right to work on your PhD
and this is truly a story of being always in the right place at the right time and could couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy I’m going to have to say thank you.
Let’s take it on from there I guess you.
[12:21] You continued in the Public Health Service until the end of your military obligation and and then did you look for a faculty appointment at LSU or did it find you how did that work.
Well again it was kind of everything falling into place at the right time when I was stationed in New Orleans I was sent there as deputy chief at the Marine Hospital
which really opened my eyes and you know New York City I was in an outpatient clinic prompt primarily musculoskeletal with a smattering of other things and
but when I got to the Marine Hospital.
[12:54] We actually divided ourselves into teams and I was put over the medical surgical team as opposed to The Orthopaedic team and so I got to learn a great deal more there and I’m that it was in that position that I got to see all the wounds and.
You know that was in the day of Whirlpool being the real reason that patients were sent to physical therapy and sure you know I was swirl pooling them with the with the best of them when one day.
I’ve had this Epiphany is like why am I putting someone with venous congestion into a dependent position in warm water letting them sit there for 20 minutes.
[13:30] That was when I started really rethinking how to manage those conditions and started working with,
freshen and all that but as far as leaving the service I.
[13:41] It was in that time when Reagan came into office and he decided to downsize the Public Health Service.
[13:48] So he closed down the Bureau of hospitals.
And your chart your choice was if you stayed in the Public Health Service you either were stationed at a Indian Reservation.
Or in the Bureau of Prisons and I really
did not have a desire to go to either of those places in that point in my career and I had been doing some adjunct teaching with LSU in their physical therapy program and so they
they jumped at the opportunity to have me come on faculty and so I did and they allowed me to teach as well as.
You’ll get my work towards my doctoral degree so I joined l.s.u. at that time and.
They shortly later sent me up to Shreveport to see about opening a new program in Shreveport and here I’ve been ever since and I want to talk a little bit more about.
[14:43] Your education of course the physical therapy part of it speaks for itself but.
When you began to work on your doctorate it was more in the area of Education as I understand it if I got that right correct that was you know really kind of driven by the fact that I was going to be a teacher.
I knew a lot at the time about my subject matter but didn’t know a whole lot about.
You know how to deliberate in a in an effective Manner and being.
You know a person that likes to engage people in all I just didn’t want to be the talking head and the front of the classroom I really wanted to do a thorough job and.
And you’ll become the best teacher that I could and I had a great major professor at the University of New Orleans who allowed me to enter we’ve all of my.
Medical side of training and to the education matpat they were enamored by.
More people coming in we had dentist come from the dental school in all and start joining joining this doctoral program to because they were very much engaging is making this.
[15:53] Not the K-12 type of education but true college-level education and professional level education so every project I did had something to do with,
what I was doing at work at that time or research I was doing or whatever it was just a very functional degree for me,
yeah it sounds like and in led to a very substantial bibliography I might add,
I’m continuing to be a little curious about
any further experience that you might have had with Hansen’s Disease I know that you did first happened in New York but being as,
the only leprosy hospital to the last surviving leprosy Hospital in this nation was in fact
in the New Orleans vicinity I don’t know if the hospital was still open when you arrived there or not but absolutely what can did you have any experience there and,
what was it like I did we.
You know like I said I was stationed in New Orleans but there was also a duty station at Carvel at the national leprosarium
National Hansen’s Disease Center and we got to go there periodically to learn more about Prosthetics and also about Hansen’s Disease in and of itself treatment of the incense a limb and.
[17:14] You know it was it was there that I learned total contact casting really and this this was back in think about this now this was back in the late 70s yeah
when we were doing this and have been doing it ever since and we were some of the initial people that started teaching this at the wound care conferences and now you here,
you know people talk about total contact casting like it was the neatest thing since sliced bread well you know they are so late to the game I mean this is something that’s been out there for you know for decades and it just
people stayed away from it because it was so time-consuming you know to do it and now they you know made ways to make it a little little quicker and more modular so.
But yeah we did contact casting from 1979 going forward attention Healthcare professionals.
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did you ever have the opportunity to have any contact with dr. Paul brand or was he met him one time and he gave us a lecture one time and.
[19:28] It’s funny neighbor of mine just recently loan me a book he had read about about Carville and it was.
After it closed as a finally closes a leprosarium and Hansen’s Disease Center but you know because
by law they were allowed to stay there many of the patients elected to stay at Carvel they didn’t want to be moved out into the community for various reasons and so the.
The clinical side of it moved into Baton Rouge and they opened a center for,
for the incense a limb there so they took care of persons with diabetes as well as persons with Hansen’s Disease but many of them stayed there and what they did with the remaining part of the facility is they moved in a federal prison.
So you had federal prisoners on one half of it and patients with Hansen’s on the other side and they were supposed not supposed to mingle but.
This book was fascinating because you know the guy would talk about how you met this one person and I’d like I know that
I still have seen that person that was just so weird and to see that but it carried on I think it’s still it’s still open and they can still live there.
[20:41] Though you know other options have been made available many have moved out into the into the.
And I’d sort of offhandedly mentioned to the name dr. Paul brand would you like that.
Tell the audience a little bit more about exactly how important he is to the disease the Hansen’s Disease.
He really is he,
matter of fact the total contact casting concept he brought back from India he’s a plastic surgeon who in orthopedist I don’t know if he’s Orthopedic itself or all Plastics but definitely a surgeon who did.
Multiple surgeries to correct deformities and you know deal with these individuals but he learned the whole concept of contact casting when he was at.
Facility in India and he brought that back he was a very devoutly religious man and just a.
[21:37] Super gentleman yeah he he he is Carville you know.
Indeed and in terms of people who have had an enormous impact on any particular disease process I think.
There can’t be anybody that matches dr. Paul brand and that must have been very exciting for you to learn at the feet of the master so to speak let’s talk a little bit more about
program building you seem to have picked up on the or developed an intense interest in doing
exactly that and that.
[22:16] As far as I can tell sort of describes your career at LSU so it would you like to.
Give us the elevator pitch version of how that worked out for you sure I’m you know again it started more back in public health where Public Health was known as a place.
[22:37] That you sent students from schools when they really wanted an intense exposure to something and they came in.
They were expected to hit the ground running we gave them lectures every morning for an hour before they saw patients.
This went on and on where we started specializing in areas where we develop the complete wound care type of team so students now could come.
To the Public Health Service just for a wound care rotation where before you might get a smattering of it when you went to,
do a medical surgical rotation or things of that nature so you know we started developing that and,
no as we got better at it connected with the vascular surgeons in our facility and we’re starting doing research and we publish you know various papers on treatment of venous insufficiency and,
this evolved on later and to you know the management of patients with in since they feet you know the diet,
divide diabetic population which is just rampant right now and so we developed all of these programs that carried over and this has now become a significant component of practice you know people.
As you know we have a specially organization that allows people to become certified and and wound care multidisciplinary certification so you have intervened involved in getting that off the ground early on and still am today but.
[24:04] Other you know initiatives that came about we.
[24:08] Said we were the first group to ever publish on using intermittent pneumatic compression to treat a an active venous ulceration you know we always talked about it to treat.
No varicose veins and things of that nature but to actually heal a venous ulcer by a compression was we did the first case study on that and then followed that up.
Subsequent studies down the line we.
[24:33] Instituted total contact casting and all of our facilities and made that a routine.
Later on one of the things I was involved in as when care started to really become a,
specialty area the conference’s that you and I attend that are sponsored by Health Management Publications way back when they were integral in helping us get started a
crew call The Association for the advancement of wound care which was a multidisciplinary group,
I served on the founding Board of that as a secretary and that was a group that has really grown over the years to.
Be an advocate for patients and and really unique I might add and I’d like for you to talk a little bit about that because in terms of.
Health Care.
[25:23] Practitioner groups I just can’t think of anyone that meets the definition of multidisciplinary more than.
Then that group and I’d like to hear you talk a little bit more about that and what it was like trying to bring all those disparate groups together and wear their challenges along the way.
That they’re you know there were I mean people were ready for the organization because it was just a meeting that occurred once a year that all these.
[25:54] Professions came together and they would have you know a physician speak at this and aner speak at this may be a physical therapist at this and.
It was multidisciplinary in that regard but it really wasn’t I mean still people were still in their little silos and so,
forming this group you really bar in a multidisciplinary board you had you know all food groups represented their own on the board and you know we got together and it was a great time for sharing.
Tired knowledge base because people would not understand what what’s a physical therapist doing with wound care and it’s like well let me tell you and you know
well you know why are you doing such and such and so you got to learn all these things and it came together it had troubles along the way you know any organization.
[26:42] You see that as a new leadership comes into the picture.
The things might change drastically you know the pendulum will swing and someone will come in who will be very dictatorial and how they want to run something and others you know.
Much more you know group focused and and I’ll admit I had a falling out with them.
Within the last decade when they started to look into.
Connecting with a group dealing with specialization and allowing them to.
You know bypass some Pathways I thought people should really go through to get specialized and so you know I express that to him and,
you know I think things have changed now the group is much more cohesive and doing a great job you know they are connected with the alliance for wound care which works on helping get federal laws passed that.
[27:36] Get better Medicare Medicaid coverage for persons with wounds and.
Making sure that some of these dressings that we use that are very expensive that there’s Pathways to get those covered too.
Third party providers Etc so that group is very very engaged in that regard and it’s still very multidisciplinary.
[27:56] So you don’t have to be any specific credentialed individual to hold any office in that in that group or any committee chair.
Yeah I’m going to have to say again for emphasis I practice medicine as a surgeon for 44 years.
And I don’t recall any other organization bringing together so many.
Different levels of expertise under one tent and really.
Changing the way things are done and really having an impact on the way care is delivered and I’m sure that you must be proud of having been,
a part of that and rightfully so the next thing I want to talk to you about is.
[28:44] Probably one of the most contentious subject to ever comes up and a conversation with medical professionals and that is how do you prove that you’re qualified to do what you do.
And the answer is always well you got to take a test right and you were instrumental in setting up just such a test to set the criteria for.
[29:08] Essentially all of those disparate groups so tell us about that little Adventure.
Well I got a call one day from the gentleman down in Florida.
Who is a podiatrist and he said that group was getting together to form a.
Specialty board that would offer certification for people in one care and it be multidisciplinary certification and all of this and I was very skeptical like everybody else but my thought was.
You know I would rather be looking at this from the inside then you know being on the outside shooting throwing darts at it.
So let me see what it’s all about if it turns out to be valid I’ll stick with it if I think it’s a bunch of hooey then you know I will
no back off so I did go and serve on the first board which at that time was called the American Academy of wound management.
[30:07] And this group did start out multidisciplinary and the first people that were certified were certified
in a contentious manner that was by portfolio so there was no test to be taken at that point in time since when did not been develop so.
You know a group of.
Suppose that X you know experts in the field those who had been around had published and you know were Educators Etc got together and review their credentials and decided who would get this initial certification
we rapidly from that point started moving ahead towards the development of an exam because we knew this was not the way to go that
that would not hold whole weight that people truly had to show a common knowledge base and,
you don’t know how much of this stuff was in portfolios was factual you know puffed up or whatever so.
[31:02] We began working on the first exam and boy was that and.
Arduous process glad I missed that ball yeah we had to first get people to write questions and you’d be amazed probably not but at the quality of the questions that were submitted.
They were just horrendous you know people including teachers do not know how to write test questions you know they they,
give the answer away or they give you two good distractors and they put two silly things in which couldn’t possibly be answers and and that totally changes test statistics and all of that so we got together with a psycho metrics firm.
[31:44] And New York City and started working on test development where we brought in subject matter expert again people who
we’re known in the field and that’s the only way you called him an expert they didn’t have any other real credentials there but you know they were the ones who were giving the lectures and doing the research and all brought them in and had them
either a right questions or be
help to edit the questions that had already been submitted and this went on for four months and years until we got a test.
Attached together that was piloted and we did a.
[32:24] They do a study where they actually send it out to as many people as you can get your hands on that are working in the field,
and ask them what their day-to-day practice looks like which ones are these things that we’re thinking of testing on or things they really do or.
Think should be included and all of that and this was all pulled together into the initial test that was that was offered.
And then from that point on it was all it was all testing for certification and the test was constantly evolving as.
[32:59] As the feel changed and the way we did things change we would drop out certain questions and new ones and these data banks grew and grew.
They finally decided years later they wanted to move towards more of the board certification with the ultimate goal being for Physicians.
In this group to be able to become board certified by the American Board of sorts of Specialties which is very hard to do very hard very hard to do and so you know we started.
To try and do things that kept the group together as a multidisciplinary certification so even though a test was developed for Physicians specifically 75% of that test,
is the same test that any certified specialist takes so everybody has that Common Core of knowledge the Physicians would have,
an additional aspect is added that deals exactly what the types of things you would do the surgeries the,
medications you might prescribe etc etc and so the group did finally change over then to the American Board of Land Management and offering a,
board certification do this again is not under the.
[34:18] American board Specialties so that is still on ultimate goal I think as far as Physicians are concerned is to get that.
[34:26] Group that we did get a certain a separate certification so we have three certifications through the a bwm.
One is at the associate level which is for people who,
do not hold at least a bachelor’s degree in nursing or some health-related Fields so the more assistance text,
people in the industry sales people and all of that we then have the CWS certified wound specialist which are all the.
Um credential Professionals of nurses physical therapists.
Dieticians things of that nature and then the certified certified wound specialist position which includes MD’s DPM Studios.
And I was quite a hill to climb wasn’t it it was and it’s been several decades this is still going on this is not something Johnny come lately so,
and I was honored to work with that group for many years and I have to say I learned about as much as I contributed I think but it was really a gratifying
experience but as you say
I think the holdup is far as Physicians are concerned at this point is recognition by the American Board of Medical Specialties in for that they’re going to have to be fellowships or residencies or whatever which,
is another can of worms that unfortunately the a bwm is not going to.
[35:48] Be able to have much influence on other than to say we’ve got the exam for you
it’s all ready to go if you can meet those with other criteria hi I’m Rhonda Crowe founder and CEO Forum D coaches
here on RX for Success we interview a lot of great medical professionals on how they grew their careers how they overcame challenges.
And how they handle day-to-day work I really hope you’re getting a lot of great information.
But if you’re looking for an answer to a specific problem management or Administration challenge.
Or if you’re feeling just a bit burnt out like maybe you chose the wrong career,
well then there’s a faster way to get the help you need now it’s not counseling it’s coaching.
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[37:00] We’ll get back to our interview in just a moment but right now I want to tell you a little bit about physician Outlook.
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[38:04] And now let’s get back to today’s interview,
you know I don’t know what to say to you Joe I you know I worked with you on that board and I understand exactly.
[38:19] What are the boreas process.
That it has been and you’re still at it as a board member of the foundation and it says
so much about your dedication to a truly worthy cause and I certainly want to congratulate you for that.
It’s quite a full life that you’ve lived since since you left Sumter South Carolina will you do for what you do for fun you got any hobbies.
Ho boy do I know that’s the problem you know I’m I’m in I’m in what’s called I’m not retired now I’m it was called preferment I get to do what I prefer to.
Oh man I’m taking that I’m taking that degree home to my wife tonight but I am semi-retired I do still teach I teach.
[39:12] It’s a very,
demanding position right now it bit off more than I was willing to chew I think I work for a company called Rehab Essentials which they partnered with the University of Montana to offer.
A transitional doctor of physical therapy degree so you know many people that graduated like back when I did finish without a doctoral degree they’re wanting to come up and meet the
required standards now that our national for the new graduate and so they offer these transitional programs where students can enroll online and.
Take the necessary course work to bring them up you know getting the pharmacology the Radiology,
the one care and all of that well they asked me if I’d do the wound care module the integumentary module for them and I said sure and it it really at that time was a matter of me taking the lectures at always given.
[40:06] Breaking them down,
into you know 30 minutes our presentations and recording them so we were talking earlier about the problems you know recording these things like
podcast and also I’ve had my share of sitting in front of microphones and recording these things trying to sync them with slides and all and it worked very well students I get very good comments from students we have over 100 students in a class three times a year and from all over the world.
And
it evolved into a program Now call in tandem where the company has partnered to work with entry level Physical Therapy programs where as you can imagine a school,
um might have many experts and musculoskeletal PT but they can’t afford to have them and maybe.
Neuro PT or certainly not in wound care and all of that so they have to find other ways to get that content and the accrediting agencies are very demanding and.
In the criteria you must meet so what this in tandem group is doing is they are connecting with schools that want to get started or want to buy into this curriculum.
[41:18] Where the school is responsible for 55% of the total curriculum
and the in tandem group is responsible for 45% so what this means is that for the integumentary course I had to go down to Tampa Florida and we record 81
audio-visual segments of all of this material over a weeks period of time so I’m standing out on foot oh yes you know I’m standing in front of a green screen you know reading a teleprompter all this stuff and they go back and do all this.
Magic behind the scenes.
[41:53] To produce stuff that students get in 15-minute blocks which is about how people learn after about 15 minutes you start to drift.
[42:02] So by now probably people in this podcast or drifting right could be we gotta we gotta bring them back in
this is a great way you know so now it gives the content experts you know people who are writing the text and all of that
the chance to teach in these programmes and any program in the country can buy any module they want
to use in this fashion you have got to buy the whole thing so you know if you can’t find a teacher to teach Moon care then you can get the one care module and just supplement it with some laboratory things so you meet accreditation standards and
so this is going to be a great way I think because so much now you see in Medical School classrooms either students don’t go to class they do it all
that home on their computers you know the selectors are lectures are recorded which I can’t fathom you know so I’ve heard
time when we were in school is if you weren’t in the seat they came looking for you you are not allowed to miss a class
so you’re still continuing to contribute substantially to Academia and surely you’ve got some,
Hobbies I happen to know you’re up the hobby side you know the Hobbies get in the way you know I mean Academia gets in the way of my hobbies I I love to learn to paint I’m not an artist I am taking
I’m taking lessons and do those in matter of fact online I have a class tomorrow from 12
wonderful or scenes with at work I think you I think you got some Talent myself.
[43:29] Well thank you I certainly enjoy it when I can get the color scheme right and all it’s a real challenge but.
[43:36] Definitely a learning curve it’s using another side of the brain than the one I typically had to use
I love cooking I love working on woodworking projects chill I really enjoyed this conversation have enjoyed getting caught up with you I’ve certainly Miss Starr,
semi annual meetings since I have retired myself so I want to thank you for.
Spending the time with me today and before we go we’re going to segue into what’s my favorite part of the show and I will step aside and dr. Joe McCullough is going to
give us his prescriptions for success I guess the first thing when I look at bumping my prescriptions are
deals with passion and that is to follow your passion there were many times as I came through
my career that I hit barriers or stumbling blocks where someone might say oh no you you can’t do that or you shouldn’t be doing that or data data data and,
I would just hang with it and try and prove them wrong I can’t tell you the number of.
[44:47] Great relationships I have developed with with Physicians over the years who
may have had a differing opinion about something that we were doing and you know just spending some time and talking and getting to know them as an individual and then knowing me as an individual and then we start to share.
Research and things all of a sudden.
[45:09] We come around and we see that you know we can we can work together and many regards so you know that that would be the first thing as following that Pratt passion because if it’s meant to be it will come to fruition you will.
Find a path to to get you there and it just it just takes that that perseverance and and with that following the passion being willing to.
Step out and take that chance I mean for me to say,
yes I was going to go to school South Carolina to Richmond Virginia which was a huge City at that time for me and then from there.
You’re moving somewhere else in the country I’ve never been and then up to New York City my gosh I never imagined myself having.
Would be living in New York City and now it’s just like.
New York City is not that big a deal I you know go up there when I go to visit I can hit the streets running because I’ve I’ve.
[46:08] You know been there experience I know how the streets are laid out I’m comfortable getting around on the transportation system and all that and it was just because I was willing to follow that passion take that risk and
get out and and do some of those things the second thing for me and we kind of.
Dealt with it here in this talk today.
Is to be professionally involved you know get engaged with your National organizations your professional meetings for colleagues and I know you know
and your group there will probably be many Physicians tuning in to listen to this and when you think of engaging in the National Organization maybe the AMA or something comes to mind and that’s just such a huge
organization that we encounter the same thing with our Professional Organization the a PTA where people think.
I just want to get involved at that level on this massive organization you know they get too much into the politics of things or things that I’m just starting gauged in a really want to
be involved in more of the clinical side well you know find those organizations that allow that to happen where.
[47:18] You know for me I don’t necessarily attend the national PT conference every year I might attend one of their clinical specialty Converses what I attend is the conference for the for wound care the Symposium on Advanced wound care are other
symposia like that that come out that put me into
the specialty area I’m engaged with with people from numerous backgrounds where I can learn from them and you know being engaged in that has
got me two positions where I’ve been invited to speak at conferences around the world.
Um forgotten I’ve been engaged with corporations to do research on new products that come out then,
asked to do a textbook which you know was very successful for us and is now in its fourth edition and so all of that was because of my professional engagement that you can’t just sit back and,
you know go to work every day and hopefully read your Journal but you’re by the time it gets printed in a journal my gosh it’s been years out there that you know the stuff has been going on.
[48:26] It’s like with the textbook is probably been a decade that the stuffs been going on by the time it really hits print in the textbook so.
You know that getting to those meetings getting the
stuff on The Cutting Edge is so important hearing the people that are doing the work right now talk about what they’re doing the problems are encountering how they plan to solve it cetera and you know.
Getting involved outside of your profession for me,
being able to work with Physicians and surgeons and Specialty surgeons like yourself a vascular and all of that is just been tremendous and also with nurses and
learning about nutrition this can’t tell you how much that professional involvement has has a,
paid off for me and the third thing for me in a prescription for success is to be a Perpetual learner I just can’t.
[49:23] You know learn enough about things I it was always problematic when I would go to the library researching a topic I was doing some research on at the time I would invariably run across
two or three other Journal articles that piqued my interest and I would you know
go off and start looking at those and it’s like you know focus focus focus get your attention deficit disorder back here on this topic at hand.
But you know learning is just fantastic it.
[49:53] And it doesn’t for me it doesn’t stop just at the professional as I said I have hobbies more than I can find time to deal with.
Didn’t know a thing about painting and started taking up painting and every time I take a lecture and the teacher gives us a little technique it’s like oh wow I never thought of that.
You try that and you get success or you try and fail and you keep trying it and eventually get success.
[50:19] Technology makes it so much easier for us nowadays that again we can go down rabbit holes we can get started on a YouTube video on some esoteric subject and.
Find yourselves at hours have passed and you’re just have lost track of time but you know that.
That to me is rewarding I just love that if I can come away from a meeting having said I learned one thing new then the meeting has been worthwhile for.
So so often we go to these meetings and we’re the ones giving the lectures and you’re like what is in it for me and then you hear a new person speak that you haven’t heard before and all of a sudden the light goes off in your life,
haha you know I could take that back and use that on Monday morning with a patient I’m seeing right now and I’m so thankful for.
Having the opportunity to gain that knowledge so yeah.
[51:13] That kind of sums it up for me so follow your passion to stay professionally involved and to be a Perpetual learner.
Well dr. Joe McCullough I must say I think
about as well as I’ve ever seen anybody do it you definitely practice what you preach and that’s some good advice for the audience before we go I want to give you an opportunity to
share with our audience anything that you’d like to share whether it be websites or email addresses or do books or where you’re going to be appearing next what have you got for us,
there is a University West Carol Western Carolina University in Asheville and,
Cullowhee North Carolina they actually use the original portion of the integumentary course that I created so they were looking for someone to come in and do 15 hours of in person.
Teaching and they asked the company if they had any suggestions of people in the company said well as a matter of
guy who did your curriculum now lives right down the road from you so you know when we’re up at our North Carolina mountain house I’ll be going over
Asheville to teach in the.
[52:26] Integumentary program at Western Carolina University for for Wednesday afternoon so that’s how be spending that time the other thing
majority time spent with the,
American Board of wound management and I encourage anyone who would consider specialization to to look into that
the I am chairman of the foundation and the foundation’s role is to produce educational materials and then help promote the exam we don’t have anything to do with the exam itself but if you’re interested in the exam that would be.
Wound care certified dot-org and if you want more about educational material that will help you study for the exams and you’d go to the a bwm foundation.
I’m dot org so they are
two definite groups that I would encourage people interested in one care to look into and then if you have any questions you want to ask me directly you’re certainly welcome to email me my email.
Is Joseph dot McCulloch that’s MCC ull OCH.
At LSU HS dot edu Joseph McCulloch at LSU h s dot EDU.
[53:42] And I am on LinkedIn also if you want to go that route and.
I’d be happy to help anybody answer any questions I could I still stay affiliated with LSU as their adjunct faculty.
[53:56] Retired as dean of the school there in 2018 so but I still keep my email address with them,
dr. Joseph McCullough thank you so much for being with us today it’s been a great pleasure getting caught up with you and I’m really grateful for you taking the time with us thank you and I enjoyed the,
the time with you and certainly send my regards to you and your your wife thank you so much for joining us today.
We’d really appreciate a review from you and a five-star rating helps us a lot these ratings give our podcast much more visibility,
and that helps us reach more listeners.
[54:35] Exclusive content is available on our patreon page including membership only material like personal rapid fire Q & A sessions with our guests.
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[54:53] While you’re there learn how to get CME credit from cmf I just by listening.
[54:59] Special thanks to Ryan Jones who created Aunt performs our theme music and remember,
be sure to fill your prescription for success with my next episode.
[0:15] Music.
[0:20] Paging dr. cook paging dr. cook dr. Kirk you’re wanted in the o.r. dr. KO your.
[0:28] Music.
[0:50] Hello everyone and welcome to prescriptions for Success I’m dr. Randy cook your host for the podcast.
Which is a production of the empty coaches providing leadership and Executive coaching for Physicians by physicians.
To overcome burnout transition your career.
Develop as a leader or whatever your goal might be visit MD coaches on the web at my MD coaches.com because you’re not in this alone.
[1:19] And don’t forget see any credit is available when you listen with us just look for cmf,
in the show notes to learn how my guest today recently retired after 38 years of service at Louisiana State University in Shreveport.
Where he chaired the department of physical therapy and eventually became the inaugural dean of the school of Allied Health Professions.
So let’s hear my conversation with dr. Joe McCullough so I want to welcome everyone to prescriptions for Success I’m really looking forward to the conversation.
[1:57] Today because we have not only an interesting guest as always but I’m having an opportunity to speak to an old friend so dr. Joe McCulloch thanks so much for being here and welcome to
prescription for Success it’s my pleasure and thank you for having me
well I hope to have a lot of fun and learn some things about you that I didn’t already know not that I haven’t had plenty of opportunities to.
[2:21] To know plenty but what we want to do as always Joe is sort of talk about your career.
Trajectory I know that when I was about to say you grew up in Sumter South Carolina but I don’t know that to be the case did you or did you merely graduate from high school there,
no I am from Sumter it’s been my first 18 years there before going off to college alrighty so you and you began your college career at University of South Carolina correct and it looks like from my research that you,
had your eye on physical therapy from the very beginning is that right.
[3:00] I kind of did I started out in high school I knew I wanted to do something in the health careers and I very much wanted to work,
so closely with people helping people so I started volunteering and I volunteered for several years as a high school student in the hospital in every Department I could get into and I.
[3:23] Ran across physical therapy at that time but it wasn’t until my my aunt who lived in Morganton North Carolina.
When I graduate from high school she informed me of a summer position that was available at a center for developmental disabilities up in the Morganton area.
And she told me I should apply she was always pushing me to go to college and all of this I was the first person in my family too,
to make it to college so I applied for the job in a physical therapy department and got it and so I spent two summers as it turned out working in the Western Carolina Center and Morganton
with these children that were fascinating to me I knew nothing about,
developmental disabilities at that time I knew nothing really about physical therapy and learned a great deal so I decided to pursue that as a career path.
I want to take an opportunity to answer a question that I expect a lot of people have because the.
[4:23] Pathway to a career in physical therapy has changed a good bit over the last 30 years or 30 years 30 maybe 40 years or so and.
[4:35] At the time that you made that decision was it.
[4:39] To your course of study to get certified as a physical therapist or were they in the three-year period tell us where you were,
nope and that back when I went back in the early 70s it was you had two years of college prerequisites and then you went to physical therapy school for the final two
and then clinical rotations but I said it was a bachelor’s degree back then and then.
Moved into Masters and now it’s the mandatory doctoral degree so you did your two years at USC and then you moved on to Medical College of Virginia for your correct for your last two years is that right what what.
[5:15] Brought about that decision it was primarily driven by the fact that South Carolina at that time did not have a physical therapy school and they had worked out an agreement with Virginia that they would take,
they limited number of students because it was only 30 students in a class back,
and I happened to be one of those lucky no one else in South Carolina applied mcz that year so,
luckily I got in and it was a miracle because you always said being in physical therapy education all these years that I could never have made it into the.
Profession if I had to go through the standards we have nowadays it’s just.
No it’s a real challenge for students wanting to pursue this career path nowaday because,
it’s there’s just so limited number of positions available and highly competitive knowing your level of intellect as I do I have a feeling that you’re underselling yourself a little bit but I appreciate you,
clearing that up so at that point you’re qualified to begin a.
Career as a physical therapist but yet you wound up.
[6:23] Joining not really a branch of the military but something close what what was it that sent you to New York City.
[6:30] Well I was when I graduated in 1972 we had that military obligation for the Vietnam War you bet you and
I was deferred oh yeah I was deferred all the years I was in college but when I graduated well actually it was it was very strange when I was on my clinical rotations I,
got a call to go from my physical and I would I would tell them I’ll be happy to but I’m not an,
you know I’m not in Richmond anymore I’m in Greenville South Carolina on a clinical can I have it moved to Greenville and so they said sure and they
you know move me to Greenville will by the time it got through the government paperwork to get it moved to Greenville I had been moved on to Charleston West Virginia for a rehab rotation so I told him well I’m not in Greenville and so after
the second time of that they said you’re just trying to avoid the draft your now.
[7:23] Automatically 1A and subject to the next call no kids so oh yes they weren’t playing around well you know my heart dropped and I bet it did
you know I graduated from from PT school and passed my boards and a gentleman in Jackson Mississippi hired me
to come and work in this private practice which at that time he was offering me a thousand dollars a month which
holy canteen 72 was amazing money I’m So yeah so I said okay but I told him about this draft obligation he says well we’ll work with you to get into the National Guard or something so I got down there and
sure enough I took the test for the Air National Guard and.
[8:04] They told me I qualified to do whatever I wanted to do in the National Guard and and first of all I didn’t want to go in to begin with but I had applied to,
the Navy and to Public Health for commissions and I got within a
one week period I got a letter from the Navy telling me I had been commissioned in the US Navy and then the next week I got one from the Public Health Service tell me I’ve been commissioned in the public health service so I had a choice to make and Public Health,
was a much more interesting environment for me just because it was not military really and you only went into the military service and absolute War.
Which case you’d go into the Navy but so I turned down the Navy commission and my roommate that time actually took it.
And what was so funny about that is my college roommate from PT school was already in the Navy and he got a notice that I was showing up
you know to be stationed at his at his base and so he was looking forward to me arriving wow another friend walks in the door,
but I did get the Public Health commission nice thing about public health is they commissioned you at one rank higher than the Navy.
[9:18] So I went in there as a lieutenant JG and.
It was all uphill from there that was the most amazing experience of my life you know a little South Carolina boy when they told me I was going to be stationed in New York City I said I didn’t really care because I was really ready to get out of.
Where was it the time and
so I went up there and boy did my eyes open what an experience that was to see the city and the type of practice we had you know we basically had an independent practice back in the 70s
you know where that’s just happening in the last decade here and all around the states and so,
you know physical therapist love being their Physicians not so much you know they would rather have been out in their private practices or doing other things so they just kind of,
set everything to us you know we took care of anything musculoskeletal at the time and that’s really where I got my first exposure to wounds.
[10:19] I had a,
patient come in with a diagnosis of Hansen’s Disease which I had no clue what that was so I quickly did some research and realize that was leprosy and so I’m like wait a minute I’m going to audition
and this is why you were in New York yes I’ll be doing as the Public Health Service is
provides care for the Hansen’s of these patients of course one of their beneficiaries so I quickly learned that I was not
you know subject to getting leprosy from this individual and
I was just amazed by the disease process and so much of what I learned at that time and then later when I transferred to New Orleans help me in managing persons with insensitivity and since they foot and all of that yeah that would certainly.
[11:04] Sort of explain your rather intense interest in wound care as the years,
went by and and you actually used those years I gather to get some more education that’s where you got your master’s degree at right yes I did
while I was in New York I had the opportunity through the GI bill to work on my masters at night at NYU so I finished up.
Finished up there in my masters and right after I finish my masters and turned in my Master’s thesis my major Professor is just a real go-getter to this day she’s just the Dynamo she.
When I got down to New Orleans and moved into my apartment my dissertation my thesis was sitting on my doorstep with all her Corrections no the note wow get this turned around and back to me and two weeks or something that’s like gosh I didn’t get a chance to breathe,
so yeah I got I got about taken care of there and then I started my doctoral studies while in New Orleans yeah and got right to work on your PhD
and this is truly a story of being always in the right place at the right time and could couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy I’m going to have to say thank you.
Let’s take it on from there I guess you.
[12:21] You continued in the Public Health Service until the end of your military obligation and and then did you look for a faculty appointment at LSU or did it find you how did that work.
Well again it was kind of everything falling into place at the right time when I was stationed in New Orleans I was sent there as deputy chief at the Marine Hospital
which really opened my eyes and you know New York City I was in an outpatient clinic prompt primarily musculoskeletal with a smattering of other things and
but when I got to the Marine Hospital.
[12:54] We actually divided ourselves into teams and I was put over the medical surgical team as opposed to The Orthopaedic team and so I got to learn a great deal more there and I’m that it was in that position that I got to see all the wounds and.
You know that was in the day of Whirlpool being the real reason that patients were sent to physical therapy and sure you know I was swirl pooling them with the with the best of them when one day.
I’ve had this Epiphany is like why am I putting someone with venous congestion into a dependent position in warm water letting them sit there for 20 minutes.
[13:30] That was when I started really rethinking how to manage those conditions and started working with,
freshen and all that but as far as leaving the service I.
[13:41] It was in that time when Reagan came into office and he decided to downsize the Public Health Service.
[13:48] So he closed down the Bureau of hospitals.
And your chart your choice was if you stayed in the Public Health Service you either were stationed at a Indian Reservation.
Or in the Bureau of Prisons and I really
did not have a desire to go to either of those places in that point in my career and I had been doing some adjunct teaching with LSU in their physical therapy program and so they
they jumped at the opportunity to have me come on faculty and so I did and they allowed me to teach as well as.
You’ll get my work towards my doctoral degree so I joined l.s.u. at that time and.
They shortly later sent me up to Shreveport to see about opening a new program in Shreveport and here I’ve been ever since and I want to talk a little bit more about.
[14:43] Your education of course the physical therapy part of it speaks for itself but.
When you began to work on your doctorate it was more in the area of Education as I understand it if I got that right correct that was you know really kind of driven by the fact that I was going to be a teacher.
I knew a lot at the time about my subject matter but didn’t know a whole lot about.
You know how to deliberate in a in an effective Manner and being.
You know a person that likes to engage people in all I just didn’t want to be the talking head and the front of the classroom I really wanted to do a thorough job and.
And you’ll become the best teacher that I could and I had a great major professor at the University of New Orleans who allowed me to enter we’ve all of my.
Medical side of training and to the education matpat they were enamored by.
More people coming in we had dentist come from the dental school in all and start joining joining this doctoral program to because they were very much engaging is making this.
[15:53] Not the K-12 type of education but true college-level education and professional level education so every project I did had something to do with,
what I was doing at work at that time or research I was doing or whatever it was just a very functional degree for me,
yeah it sounds like and in led to a very substantial bibliography I might add,
I’m continuing to be a little curious about
any further experience that you might have had with Hansen’s Disease I know that you did first happened in New York but being as,
the only leprosy hospital to the last surviving leprosy Hospital in this nation was in fact
in the New Orleans vicinity I don’t know if the hospital was still open when you arrived there or not but absolutely what can did you have any experience there and,
what was it like I did we.
You know like I said I was stationed in New Orleans but there was also a duty station at Carvel at the national leprosarium
National Hansen’s Disease Center and we got to go there periodically to learn more about Prosthetics and also about Hansen’s Disease in and of itself treatment of the incense a limb and.
[17:14] You know it was it was there that I learned total contact casting really and this this was back in think about this now this was back in the late 70s yeah
when we were doing this and have been doing it ever since and we were some of the initial people that started teaching this at the wound care conferences and now you here,
you know people talk about total contact casting like it was the neatest thing since sliced bread well you know they are so late to the game I mean this is something that’s been out there for you know for decades and it just
people stayed away from it because it was so time-consuming you know to do it and now they you know made ways to make it a little little quicker and more modular so.
But yeah we did contact casting from 1979 going forward attention Healthcare professionals.
If you lost control of your career do you feel like you need to hit the reset button if you’re tired of uncertainty struggling to find balance in your career,
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did you ever have the opportunity to have any contact with dr. Paul brand or was he met him one time and he gave us a lecture one time and.
[19:28] It’s funny neighbor of mine just recently loan me a book he had read about about Carville and it was.
After it closed as a finally closes a leprosarium and Hansen’s Disease Center but you know because
by law they were allowed to stay there many of the patients elected to stay at Carvel they didn’t want to be moved out into the community for various reasons and so the.
The clinical side of it moved into Baton Rouge and they opened a center for,
for the incense a limb there so they took care of persons with diabetes as well as persons with Hansen’s Disease but many of them stayed there and what they did with the remaining part of the facility is they moved in a federal prison.
So you had federal prisoners on one half of it and patients with Hansen’s on the other side and they were supposed not supposed to mingle but.
This book was fascinating because you know the guy would talk about how you met this one person and I’d like I know that
I still have seen that person that was just so weird and to see that but it carried on I think it’s still it’s still open and they can still live there.
[20:41] Though you know other options have been made available many have moved out into the into the.
And I’d sort of offhandedly mentioned to the name dr. Paul brand would you like that.
Tell the audience a little bit more about exactly how important he is to the disease the Hansen’s Disease.
He really is he,
matter of fact the total contact casting concept he brought back from India he’s a plastic surgeon who in orthopedist I don’t know if he’s Orthopedic itself or all Plastics but definitely a surgeon who did.
Multiple surgeries to correct deformities and you know deal with these individuals but he learned the whole concept of contact casting when he was at.
Facility in India and he brought that back he was a very devoutly religious man and just a.
[21:37] Super gentleman yeah he he he is Carville you know.
Indeed and in terms of people who have had an enormous impact on any particular disease process I think.
There can’t be anybody that matches dr. Paul brand and that must have been very exciting for you to learn at the feet of the master so to speak let’s talk a little bit more about
program building you seem to have picked up on the or developed an intense interest in doing
exactly that and that.
[22:16] As far as I can tell sort of describes your career at LSU so it would you like to.
Give us the elevator pitch version of how that worked out for you sure I’m you know again it started more back in public health where Public Health was known as a place.
[22:37] That you sent students from schools when they really wanted an intense exposure to something and they came in.
They were expected to hit the ground running we gave them lectures every morning for an hour before they saw patients.
This went on and on where we started specializing in areas where we develop the complete wound care type of team so students now could come.
To the Public Health Service just for a wound care rotation where before you might get a smattering of it when you went to,
do a medical surgical rotation or things of that nature so you know we started developing that and,
no as we got better at it connected with the vascular surgeons in our facility and we’re starting doing research and we publish you know various papers on treatment of venous insufficiency and,
this evolved on later and to you know the management of patients with in since they feet you know the diet,
divide diabetic population which is just rampant right now and so we developed all of these programs that carried over and this has now become a significant component of practice you know people.
As you know we have a specially organization that allows people to become certified and and wound care multidisciplinary certification so you have intervened involved in getting that off the ground early on and still am today but.
[24:04] Other you know initiatives that came about we.
[24:08] Said we were the first group to ever publish on using intermittent pneumatic compression to treat a an active venous ulceration you know we always talked about it to treat.
No varicose veins and things of that nature but to actually heal a venous ulcer by a compression was we did the first case study on that and then followed that up.
Subsequent studies down the line we.
[24:33] Instituted total contact casting and all of our facilities and made that a routine.
Later on one of the things I was involved in as when care started to really become a,
specialty area the conference’s that you and I attend that are sponsored by Health Management Publications way back when they were integral in helping us get started a
crew call The Association for the advancement of wound care which was a multidisciplinary group,
I served on the founding Board of that as a secretary and that was a group that has really grown over the years to.
Be an advocate for patients and and really unique I might add and I’d like for you to talk a little bit about that because in terms of.
Health Care.
[25:23] Practitioner groups I just can’t think of anyone that meets the definition of multidisciplinary more than.
Then that group and I’d like to hear you talk a little bit more about that and what it was like trying to bring all those disparate groups together and wear their challenges along the way.
That they’re you know there were I mean people were ready for the organization because it was just a meeting that occurred once a year that all these.
[25:54] Professions came together and they would have you know a physician speak at this and aner speak at this may be a physical therapist at this and.
It was multidisciplinary in that regard but it really wasn’t I mean still people were still in their little silos and so,
forming this group you really bar in a multidisciplinary board you had you know all food groups represented their own on the board and you know we got together and it was a great time for sharing.
Tired knowledge base because people would not understand what what’s a physical therapist doing with wound care and it’s like well let me tell you and you know
well you know why are you doing such and such and so you got to learn all these things and it came together it had troubles along the way you know any organization.
[26:42] You see that as a new leadership comes into the picture.
The things might change drastically you know the pendulum will swing and someone will come in who will be very dictatorial and how they want to run something and others you know.
Much more you know group focused and and I’ll admit I had a falling out with them.
Within the last decade when they started to look into.
Connecting with a group dealing with specialization and allowing them to.
You know bypass some Pathways I thought people should really go through to get specialized and so you know I express that to him and,
you know I think things have changed now the group is much more cohesive and doing a great job you know they are connected with the alliance for wound care which works on helping get federal laws passed that.
[27:36] Get better Medicare Medicaid coverage for persons with wounds and.
Making sure that some of these dressings that we use that are very expensive that there’s Pathways to get those covered too.
Third party providers Etc so that group is very very engaged in that regard and it’s still very multidisciplinary.
[27:56] So you don’t have to be any specific credentialed individual to hold any office in that in that group or any committee chair.
Yeah I’m going to have to say again for emphasis I practice medicine as a surgeon for 44 years.
And I don’t recall any other organization bringing together so many.
Different levels of expertise under one tent and really.
Changing the way things are done and really having an impact on the way care is delivered and I’m sure that you must be proud of having been,
a part of that and rightfully so the next thing I want to talk to you about is.
[28:44] Probably one of the most contentious subject to ever comes up and a conversation with medical professionals and that is how do you prove that you’re qualified to do what you do.
And the answer is always well you got to take a test right and you were instrumental in setting up just such a test to set the criteria for.
[29:08] Essentially all of those disparate groups so tell us about that little Adventure.
Well I got a call one day from the gentleman down in Florida.
Who is a podiatrist and he said that group was getting together to form a.
Specialty board that would offer certification for people in one care and it be multidisciplinary certification and all of this and I was very skeptical like everybody else but my thought was.
You know I would rather be looking at this from the inside then you know being on the outside shooting throwing darts at it.
So let me see what it’s all about if it turns out to be valid I’ll stick with it if I think it’s a bunch of hooey then you know I will
no back off so I did go and serve on the first board which at that time was called the American Academy of wound management.
[30:07] And this group did start out multidisciplinary and the first people that were certified were certified
in a contentious manner that was by portfolio so there was no test to be taken at that point in time since when did not been develop so.
You know a group of.
Suppose that X you know experts in the field those who had been around had published and you know were Educators Etc got together and review their credentials and decided who would get this initial certification
we rapidly from that point started moving ahead towards the development of an exam because we knew this was not the way to go that
that would not hold whole weight that people truly had to show a common knowledge base and,
you don’t know how much of this stuff was in portfolios was factual you know puffed up or whatever so.
[31:02] We began working on the first exam and boy was that and.
Arduous process glad I missed that ball yeah we had to first get people to write questions and you’d be amazed probably not but at the quality of the questions that were submitted.
They were just horrendous you know people including teachers do not know how to write test questions you know they they,
give the answer away or they give you two good distractors and they put two silly things in which couldn’t possibly be answers and and that totally changes test statistics and all of that so we got together with a psycho metrics firm.
[31:44] And New York City and started working on test development where we brought in subject matter expert again people who
we’re known in the field and that’s the only way you called him an expert they didn’t have any other real credentials there but you know they were the ones who were giving the lectures and doing the research and all brought them in and had them
either a right questions or be
help to edit the questions that had already been submitted and this went on for four months and years until we got a test.
Attached together that was piloted and we did a.
[32:24] They do a study where they actually send it out to as many people as you can get your hands on that are working in the field,
and ask them what their day-to-day practice looks like which ones are these things that we’re thinking of testing on or things they really do or.
Think should be included and all of that and this was all pulled together into the initial test that was that was offered.
And then from that point on it was all it was all testing for certification and the test was constantly evolving as.
[32:59] As the feel changed and the way we did things change we would drop out certain questions and new ones and these data banks grew and grew.
They finally decided years later they wanted to move towards more of the board certification with the ultimate goal being for Physicians.
In this group to be able to become board certified by the American Board of sorts of Specialties which is very hard to do very hard very hard to do and so you know we started.
To try and do things that kept the group together as a multidisciplinary certification so even though a test was developed for Physicians specifically 75% of that test,
is the same test that any certified specialist takes so everybody has that Common Core of knowledge the Physicians would have,
an additional aspect is added that deals exactly what the types of things you would do the surgeries the,
medications you might prescribe etc etc and so the group did finally change over then to the American Board of Land Management and offering a,
board certification do this again is not under the.
[34:18] American board Specialties so that is still on ultimate goal I think as far as Physicians are concerned is to get that.
[34:26] Group that we did get a certain a separate certification so we have three certifications through the a bwm.
One is at the associate level which is for people who,
do not hold at least a bachelor’s degree in nursing or some health-related Fields so the more assistance text,
people in the industry sales people and all of that we then have the CWS certified wound specialist which are all the.
Um credential Professionals of nurses physical therapists.
Dieticians things of that nature and then the certified certified wound specialist position which includes MD’s DPM Studios.
And I was quite a hill to climb wasn’t it it was and it’s been several decades this is still going on this is not something Johnny come lately so,
and I was honored to work with that group for many years and I have to say I learned about as much as I contributed I think but it was really a gratifying
experience but as you say
I think the holdup is far as Physicians are concerned at this point is recognition by the American Board of Medical Specialties in for that they’re going to have to be fellowships or residencies or whatever which,
is another can of worms that unfortunately the a bwm is not going to.
[35:48] Be able to have much influence on other than to say we’ve got the exam for you
it’s all ready to go if you can meet those with other criteria hi I’m Rhonda Crowe founder and CEO Forum D coaches
here on RX for Success we interview a lot of great medical professionals on how they grew their careers how they overcame challenges.
And how they handle day-to-day work I really hope you’re getting a lot of great information.
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[37:00] We’ll get back to our interview in just a moment but right now I want to tell you a little bit about physician Outlook.
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[38:04] And now let’s get back to today’s interview,
you know I don’t know what to say to you Joe I you know I worked with you on that board and I understand exactly.
[38:19] What are the boreas process.
That it has been and you’re still at it as a board member of the foundation and it says
so much about your dedication to a truly worthy cause and I certainly want to congratulate you for that.
It’s quite a full life that you’ve lived since since you left Sumter South Carolina will you do for what you do for fun you got any hobbies.
Ho boy do I know that’s the problem you know I’m I’m in I’m in what’s called I’m not retired now I’m it was called preferment I get to do what I prefer to.
Oh man I’m taking that I’m taking that degree home to my wife tonight but I am semi-retired I do still teach I teach.
[39:12] It’s a very,
demanding position right now it bit off more than I was willing to chew I think I work for a company called Rehab Essentials which they partnered with the University of Montana to offer.
A transitional doctor of physical therapy degree so you know many people that graduated like back when I did finish without a doctoral degree they’re wanting to come up and meet the
required standards now that our national for the new graduate and so they offer these transitional programs where students can enroll online and.
Take the necessary course work to bring them up you know getting the pharmacology the Radiology,
the one care and all of that well they asked me if I’d do the wound care module the integumentary module for them and I said sure and it it really at that time was a matter of me taking the lectures at always given.
[40:06] Breaking them down,
into you know 30 minutes our presentations and recording them so we were talking earlier about the problems you know recording these things like
podcast and also I’ve had my share of sitting in front of microphones and recording these things trying to sync them with slides and all and it worked very well students I get very good comments from students we have over 100 students in a class three times a year and from all over the world.
And
it evolved into a program Now call in tandem where the company has partnered to work with entry level Physical Therapy programs where as you can imagine a school,
um might have many experts and musculoskeletal PT but they can’t afford to have them and maybe.
Neuro PT or certainly not in wound care and all of that so they have to find other ways to get that content and the accrediting agencies are very demanding and.
In the criteria you must meet so what this in tandem group is doing is they are connecting with schools that want to get started or want to buy into this curriculum.
[41:18] Where the school is responsible for 55% of the total curriculum
and the in tandem group is responsible for 45% so what this means is that for the integumentary course I had to go down to Tampa Florida and we record 81
audio-visual segments of all of this material over a weeks period of time so I’m standing out on foot oh yes you know I’m standing in front of a green screen you know reading a teleprompter all this stuff and they go back and do all this.
Magic behind the scenes.
[41:53] To produce stuff that students get in 15-minute blocks which is about how people learn after about 15 minutes you start to drift.
[42:02] So by now probably people in this podcast or drifting right could be we gotta we gotta bring them back in
this is a great way you know so now it gives the content experts you know people who are writing the text and all of that
the chance to teach in these programmes and any program in the country can buy any module they want
to use in this fashion you have got to buy the whole thing so you know if you can’t find a teacher to teach Moon care then you can get the one care module and just supplement it with some laboratory things so you meet accreditation standards and
so this is going to be a great way I think because so much now you see in Medical School classrooms either students don’t go to class they do it all
that home on their computers you know the selectors are lectures are recorded which I can’t fathom you know so I’ve heard
time when we were in school is if you weren’t in the seat they came looking for you you are not allowed to miss a class
so you’re still continuing to contribute substantially to Academia and surely you’ve got some,
Hobbies I happen to know you’re up the hobby side you know the Hobbies get in the way you know I mean Academia gets in the way of my hobbies I I love to learn to paint I’m not an artist I am taking
I’m taking lessons and do those in matter of fact online I have a class tomorrow from 12
wonderful or scenes with at work I think you I think you got some Talent myself.
[43:29] Well thank you I certainly enjoy it when I can get the color scheme right and all it’s a real challenge but.
[43:36] Definitely a learning curve it’s using another side of the brain than the one I typically had to use
I love cooking I love working on woodworking projects chill I really enjoyed this conversation have enjoyed getting caught up with you I’ve certainly Miss Starr,
semi annual meetings since I have retired myself so I want to thank you for.
Spending the time with me today and before we go we’re going to segue into what’s my favorite part of the show and I will step aside and dr. Joe McCullough is going to
give us his prescriptions for success I guess the first thing when I look at bumping my prescriptions are
deals with passion and that is to follow your passion there were many times as I came through
my career that I hit barriers or stumbling blocks where someone might say oh no you you can’t do that or you shouldn’t be doing that or data data data and,
I would just hang with it and try and prove them wrong I can’t tell you the number of.
[44:47] Great relationships I have developed with with Physicians over the years who
may have had a differing opinion about something that we were doing and you know just spending some time and talking and getting to know them as an individual and then knowing me as an individual and then we start to share.
Research and things all of a sudden.
[45:09] We come around and we see that you know we can we can work together and many regards so you know that that would be the first thing as following that Pratt passion because if it’s meant to be it will come to fruition you will.
Find a path to to get you there and it just it just takes that that perseverance and and with that following the passion being willing to.
Step out and take that chance I mean for me to say,
yes I was going to go to school South Carolina to Richmond Virginia which was a huge City at that time for me and then from there.
You’re moving somewhere else in the country I’ve never been and then up to New York City my gosh I never imagined myself having.
Would be living in New York City and now it’s just like.
New York City is not that big a deal I you know go up there when I go to visit I can hit the streets running because I’ve I’ve.
[46:08] You know been there experience I know how the streets are laid out I’m comfortable getting around on the transportation system and all that and it was just because I was willing to follow that passion take that risk and
get out and and do some of those things the second thing for me and we kind of.
Dealt with it here in this talk today.
Is to be professionally involved you know get engaged with your National organizations your professional meetings for colleagues and I know you know
and your group there will probably be many Physicians tuning in to listen to this and when you think of engaging in the National Organization maybe the AMA or something comes to mind and that’s just such a huge
organization that we encounter the same thing with our Professional Organization the a PTA where people think.
I just want to get involved at that level on this massive organization you know they get too much into the politics of things or things that I’m just starting gauged in a really want to
be involved in more of the clinical side well you know find those organizations that allow that to happen where.
[47:18] You know for me I don’t necessarily attend the national PT conference every year I might attend one of their clinical specialty Converses what I attend is the conference for the for wound care the Symposium on Advanced wound care are other
symposia like that that come out that put me into
the specialty area I’m engaged with with people from numerous backgrounds where I can learn from them and you know being engaged in that has
got me two positions where I’ve been invited to speak at conferences around the world.
Um forgotten I’ve been engaged with corporations to do research on new products that come out then,
asked to do a textbook which you know was very successful for us and is now in its fourth edition and so all of that was because of my professional engagement that you can’t just sit back and,
you know go to work every day and hopefully read your Journal but you’re by the time it gets printed in a journal my gosh it’s been years out there that you know the stuff has been going on.
[48:26] It’s like with the textbook is probably been a decade that the stuffs been going on by the time it really hits print in the textbook so.
You know that getting to those meetings getting the
stuff on The Cutting Edge is so important hearing the people that are doing the work right now talk about what they’re doing the problems are encountering how they plan to solve it cetera and you know.
Getting involved outside of your profession for me,
being able to work with Physicians and surgeons and Specialty surgeons like yourself a vascular and all of that is just been tremendous and also with nurses and
learning about nutrition this can’t tell you how much that professional involvement has has a,
paid off for me and the third thing for me in a prescription for success is to be a Perpetual learner I just can’t.
[49:23] You know learn enough about things I it was always problematic when I would go to the library researching a topic I was doing some research on at the time I would invariably run across
two or three other Journal articles that piqued my interest and I would you know
go off and start looking at those and it’s like you know focus focus focus get your attention deficit disorder back here on this topic at hand.
But you know learning is just fantastic it.
[49:53] And it doesn’t for me it doesn’t stop just at the professional as I said I have hobbies more than I can find time to deal with.
Didn’t know a thing about painting and started taking up painting and every time I take a lecture and the teacher gives us a little technique it’s like oh wow I never thought of that.
You try that and you get success or you try and fail and you keep trying it and eventually get success.
[50:19] Technology makes it so much easier for us nowadays that again we can go down rabbit holes we can get started on a YouTube video on some esoteric subject and.
Find yourselves at hours have passed and you’re just have lost track of time but you know that.
That to me is rewarding I just love that if I can come away from a meeting having said I learned one thing new then the meeting has been worthwhile for.
So so often we go to these meetings and we’re the ones giving the lectures and you’re like what is in it for me and then you hear a new person speak that you haven’t heard before and all of a sudden the light goes off in your life,
haha you know I could take that back and use that on Monday morning with a patient I’m seeing right now and I’m so thankful for.
Having the opportunity to gain that knowledge so yeah.
[51:13] That kind of sums it up for me so follow your passion to stay professionally involved and to be a Perpetual learner.
Well dr. Joe McCullough I must say I think
about as well as I’ve ever seen anybody do it you definitely practice what you preach and that’s some good advice for the audience before we go I want to give you an opportunity to
share with our audience anything that you’d like to share whether it be websites or email addresses or do books or where you’re going to be appearing next what have you got for us,
there is a University West Carol Western Carolina University in Asheville and,
Cullowhee North Carolina they actually use the original portion of the integumentary course that I created so they were looking for someone to come in and do 15 hours of in person.
Teaching and they asked the company if they had any suggestions of people in the company said well as a matter of
guy who did your curriculum now lives right down the road from you so you know when we’re up at our North Carolina mountain house I’ll be going over
Asheville to teach in the.
[52:26] Integumentary program at Western Carolina University for for Wednesday afternoon so that’s how be spending that time the other thing
majority time spent with the,
American Board of wound management and I encourage anyone who would consider specialization to to look into that
the I am chairman of the foundation and the foundation’s role is to produce educational materials and then help promote the exam we don’t have anything to do with the exam itself but if you’re interested in the exam that would be.
Wound care certified dot-org and if you want more about educational material that will help you study for the exams and you’d go to the a bwm foundation.
I’m dot org so they are
two definite groups that I would encourage people interested in one care to look into and then if you have any questions you want to ask me directly you’re certainly welcome to email me my email.
Is Joseph dot McCulloch that’s MCC ull OCH.
At LSU HS dot edu Joseph McCulloch at LSU h s dot EDU.
[53:42] And I am on LinkedIn also if you want to go that route and.
I’d be happy to help anybody answer any questions I could I still stay affiliated with LSU as their adjunct faculty.
[53:56] Retired as dean of the school there in 2018 so but I still keep my email address with them,
dr. Joseph McCullough thank you so much for being with us today it’s been a great pleasure getting caught up with you and I’m really grateful for you taking the time with us thank you and I enjoyed the,
the time with you and certainly send my regards to you and your your wife thank you so much for joining us today.
We’d really appreciate a review from you and a five-star rating helps us a lot these ratings give our podcast much more visibility,
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