The Egalitarian: Brad Johnson , Ph.D.

[0:00] I think as soon as we men realize there’s a lot in this for us we’re going to get over the idea that you know anything related to gender Dustin and.

[0:17] Paging dr. cook paging dr. cook dr. cook you’re wanted in the o.r. dr. Koh you’re wanted in the.

[0:25] Music.

[0:45] Rewind and welcome to prescription for Success I’m dr. Randy cook your host for the podcast which is a production of MD coaches providing leadership and Executive coaching for Physicians by physicians.
To overcome burnout transition your career develop as a leader or whatever your goal might be.
Visit MD coaches on the web at my MD coaches.com because you’re not in this alone.

[1:13] And don’t forget CME credit is available when you listen with us just look for cmf I in the show notes to learn how.

[1:21] My guest today is a professor of psychology and the department of leadership ethics and law at the United States Naval Academy.

[1:30] Also a clinical faculty associate at Johns Hopkins University.

[1:54] So we’re taking a little bit of a different Tack and prescriptions for Success today typically we.
Speak to Physicians on the show but as the regular listen listeners will attest we do.

[2:07] From time to time speak to some non-physicians that I had that have a significant impact on the physician community and that’s exactly what we have today.
This time we have a honest-to-goodness a real doctor dr. Brad Johnson Brad thanks so much for joining us today it’s great to have you.

[2:24] Great to be here Randy thank you I’m looking forward to the conversation and as is always the case Brad we want to get a feel for your Beginnings so let’s start off with.
At about what age did you develop an interest in becoming a psychologist that’s a great question I
suppose that it stretches back to my maybe even pre undergrad because my father as it turns out was a psychologist he was an experimental
psychologist and a college professor and I grew up in a family where you know I had a mother who was a professional licensed counselor my dad
later in his career became licensed as a psychologist I was going to grandfathered in and so.
I had the opportunity to observe two parents engaged in
different kinds of clinical counseling work as a young person growing up and then as an undergrad really found
psychology incredibly intriguing I changed my major several times and well I was just going to ask you so I was.

[3:38] Interested your undergrad degree is a ba and yet it’s in the Sciences so at the time that you.
You started your undergrad work you you weren’t you’re undecided at that point is that correct
I was under sided yeah and I think I began a religious studies and went to sociology and just you know I didn’t find those things
quite rigorous enough and ended up taking more psych courses and
you know that I had the opportunity to have my father believe it or not for a course or two so because I went to the the college where my dad was a Prof and
and then you know ended up deciding clinical psych really was kind of the thing for me and so yeah that’s how it all began and you actually.

[4:29] Did your graduate school at a Theological Seminary is that correct I did you have Fuller Theological Seminary was in were you
were you considering Ministry at the time or was it just a good place to go to school
I was not it was just a terrific Ph.D program in Clinical Psychology had been accredited back in the 70s by the American Psychological Association think one of one of.

[4:56] Only two programs that were actually housed in seminaries and you know just given my family history that was a good.
Place for me to begin just culturally and you know interestingly Randy I had to get a masters degree in theology along the way so it ended up taking me six years to wrap up my
my doctorate in clinical psych and then as we do in clinical psych residency comes next you know and I
ended up deciding after six years of this I am ready for something radically different and
and got lured by the opportunities the military residencies provided in Clinical Psychology and said you know
that sounds like just the recipe for getting restored a little bit and ended up
going to officer indoctrination school for the Navy and ending up at Bethesda naval hospital for my residency and
yeah had a terrific training experience there and then did my three years postdoctoral to kind of pay back my
residency at Pearl Harbor the medical clinic there and again terrific experience for me.

[6:18] Yeah I bet it was so.

[6:22] I know that eventually you got a faculty appointment at the u.s. Naval Academy which we’re going to talk about some more.
What were you doing in the meantime prior to your arrival at the Naval Academy.
Yeah so I had a four-year interlude I left the Navy after four years and
ended up at George Fox University in Oregon again rather small school with a doctoral program
in clinical psych and was on faculty there for 4 years so you know got to get a taste of
of teaching at The Graduate level and and then.

[7:01] Out of the blue comes a call from a couple of colleagues at the Naval Academy.
Who said Brad we have a job here that
has your name written all over it you know they found you they found me these were a couple of you know one was a postdoc person that I had supervised to in Hawaii and one was my own
military Mentor woman named Betsy home and I’ll Circle back to her later in our conversation but Betsy and Rocky
reached out and said hey we’re looking for a clinical psychologist to come on faculty here and really helped us up our game in the behavioral sciences
you know this is this is a leadership focused institution and we really would love it if we could pull somebody in who’s got a military background so in many ways you’re you’re a perfect fit and I applied and one thing led to another and
22 years later I have I really count myself fortunate for ending up in Annapolis.

[8:07] Well now I’m intrigued by that progression of events and I have to ask and we’re going to get
more into your writing and Detail in just a moment but you do have a significant interest in.
Gender Equity or gender inequity.

[8:27] And I’m thinking that at about the time that you were recruited to the to the Naval Academy this was about the time that or.
Not long after the time that women became eligible to.

[8:43] Matriculate into the military schools do you think.
That might have had anything that might have had influenced the decision for them to recruit you.
You know that’s really interesting I think that because Betsy my own Mentor was involved in the selection process I would like to think that.
Her awareness of my more perhaps egalitarian view of
men and women in the workplace may have factored in you know to her thinking I might be a good fit but by the time I think the first class at the knee at all service academies in the u.s. it were mixed gender.
Graduated in 1980 and I I arrived there 18 years later 98 so by the time I arrived
women were more integrated and I think we had about 16 percent women at the Naval Academy my first year now we’re up
we’re pushing closer to 38 40 percent believe it or not so over the course of my time at Annapolis I’ve really seen a sea change we have a lot of work to do still when it comes to
it’s a genuine Equity but I’ve seen the progress It’s been rewarding will tell me a little bit about that can can you.

[10:01] Point to some examples of.
How things changed in in the in the years that you’ve been there with respect to gender equity.
Yeah well I think there are there are different elements to this I mean number one
with any minoritized group in this case women in the in the early years of integration it is always incredibly challenging there is there’s pushback
there’s opposition there’s harassment like you wouldn’t believe and.

[10:36] People have a hard time especially the majority group in this case mostly white men have a tough time
with the with the change right there’s this kind of zero-sum thinking if we give up something you know women are going to gain at the expense of Mavs in the chat right yeah right so
I think those those Intrepid women in the first decade of integration
really have some some battle scars right from that that really difficult experience you know there’s a sense I’ve heard from women in those classes at there was a sense week
we couldn’t even get together and talk right you couldn’t have any community of women because you were so stigmatized already you didn’t want to identify with other women so it was a very isolating
experience for those early women
going through that what we find of course in Psychology social psychology in particular is it attitudes change
with mere exposure right the more the more of those men over the years had exposure to women realize
there are they’re terrific colleagues they’re just like everybody else they bring some perspective that we didn’t have before and by the way as I get to know them they become some of my best friends.

[11:58] That just happens mere exposure my attitudes change Prejudice discrimination all of those things begin to change so that.

[12:07] That’s an issue just of time and exposure but the other piece the other element here is that over you know those two or three decades
Congress has slowly change federal law so that more.
Combat Specialties of opened up to women I think you know in the last couple of years we finally eliminated all barriers to all different areas of combat as that’s happened
women
are no longer really stigmatized in terms of being very limited in what they can do in the military now they can they can attempt to enter anything including Special Forces so I think it’s both it’s been change in law
and then change in attitude just through flat-out exposure.

[12:54] So it sounds like you think the military has made a pretty good adjustment but I wonder.

[13:02] If you even have enough data to have an opinion on.

[13:07] The same question with respect to practice of medicine there is there’s been considerable.
Gender Prejudice in that area for a very long time we continue to have some struggles with that but what do you think.

[13:23] I think that that medicine like a lot of professions is is really got a long way to go and I don’t I wouldn’t single out medicine and and by the way just for context.
These comments come from a lot of work with women and medicine with the Harvard leadership course on women and Leadership and with my colleague Dave Smith my co-author
you know we do an awful lot of speaking to Medical organizations Med schools hospitals.

[13:56] And the feedback that we get of course from women on the ground is that they experience
a lot of headwinds related to gender and this this relates to lack of opportunities for promotion it relates to pay disparities it relates to constant sexism and harassment in the workplace
I don’t have any data to suggest medicine is in a worse place than Finance or Tech or law I have a suspicion that
that you’re not but if just let’s just look at the data on women advancing to leadership you know now we have more than 50 percent of Med students who are women and yet when you look at Dean’s when you look at
full professors and medical schools were at a quarter or less still so.
The representation in medicine is not translating to leadership and and that’s for me is always a signal that.

[14:55] There are some obstacles there are some things going on that make it tough for women to feel like they have a Way Forward.
And I’m wondering if you have an opinion on.

[15:08] Something that we see pointed out fairly frequently when we’re having the discussion about.

[15:14] Medical practice and that is if you look at the figures.
Amongst those that graduate from Medical School the percentage of women that.

[15:28] Stay in it up until retirement age is dramatically less than what you see.

[15:36] A Marked Man so I’m interested to know if.
If you have observed that in other professions as well particularly in the military and if so what is the reason for that why why can’t why can’t women.
I feel like they truly want to make this a lifetime commitment.

[15:57] There’s so many layers here and I first of all let me just ask answer the military question I think yes and it’s not just the military but I think what you see in medicine
with lack of representation at the higher levels of leadership.
Exactly what we see in the military so after that five-year commitment of payback service for people who graduate from the service academies we find far fewer women
continuing their service so some of the ingredients we see here number one women
really not seeing that there’s genuinely a path for them to have a family if they are choosing to do that while also
advancing in their career there’s a sense that I have to choose I hear this from military women all the time I can’t have both or there’s a sense that boy.

[16:55] Just don’t want to continue battling the headwinds the stigma hey we don’t see many women in these professions so there’s a sense that if I don’t see myself
I don’t see a way forward for myself so lack of role modeling lack of senior women already there who can you know offer kind of guidepost both in the military and in medicine about how I might do that
there’s also harassment and discrimination and you know women get the message that they perhaps don’t belong
and I think you probably see this in the medicine field and different subspecialties where there are far fewer women there’s a sensitive if I enter that profession I’m a bit of a unicorn right and I get those messages so so then I begin to feel like an imposter I really don’t belong here and you know
why I’m just not going to continue into space right now don’t feel welcomed or that there’s a way forward for me but but to your point Randy.
Medicine is absolutely not exclusive in this area and you’re right we faces in the military the problem.
That we are running into in the military and I would predict that you’re facing this in medicine here we’re going to break the system.
If we don’t fix this because here’s what’s happening we’re graduating more and more women which is terrific but if they don’t stay.

[18:21] Working to break the system there won’t be enough Pilots there won’t be enough officers there were going to let not have enough people so
we’ve somehow got to solve this perception that you can
enjoy your career and have space for family and there’s one other strand here but maybe I’ll let you chime in that I think is really an important message for men.

[18:44] Well in that regard what I think I want to do is let’s start to talk about.
Some of your books and particularly your latest book you got 17 of them by the way 17 books and research articles.
Too numerous to count.
By the way here’s a something that you might appreciate I made the mistake I was going to print out your CV earlier today before I really.
Looked at the entire volume and when we got done my printer head
giving me 45 pages so that says that says something about the research across the research articles and papers that you have so.
That that just to underscore How Well published you are but your latest book it’s called Good Guys how men can become.
Better allies for women in the workplace so let’s just begin with.
When we look at all the things that you’ve published on this subject and in addition to a number of other really fabulous books.
How did you and David decide that this was going to be the subject for you to tackle it this particular point.

[20:01] I will just tell you briefly are kind of my story on this I’ve spent my entire career as you as you see looking through my research on mentoring relationships and really with a deep curiosity about what
mentoring looks like behaviourally when it’s done really well from the perspective of mentees what a mentee say they most appreciate what are the behaviors and attitudes of really effective mentors that’s really captivated me for most of my career and then about
ten years ago my sociology colleague David Smith comes along and all his research was in gender work and family we were both former naval officers
with an interest in one specific aspect of This research and it was
what keeps men on the sidelines right we’re looking at all the data showing women get less mentorship they get less sponsorship we see all the evidence showing men are uncomfortable engaging with women in the workplace which by the way got
deeply exacerbated by the me-too movement and
we wonder what is it that keeps men from engaging because this is really the secret ingredient to getting more rapidly to gender equity in the workplace if we’re relying just on women.

[21:23] And we’ve already talked today about the fact that there are fewer women in senior leadership if we rely on them to do all the mentoring of The Talented Junior women coming into the pipeline
it’s not going to work right and and that’s why the system is broken to some extent if men are not engaging and mentoring and sponsoring equally.

[21:44] We’re simply not ever going to get to real Equity so that was a challenge for us that was kind of the beginning you know
personally we also have women that we care about in our lives that we have parallel careers with and Dave’s cases wife was a naval officer in my case my only sibling is a sister who’s also a very senior naval officer so we’ve had this opportunity to hear from these women we care about
about the head winds and the obstacles and the things that they encounter daily that
neither David or I ever encountered just simply based on our gender and I think that has
Peak some empathy for us about this work so kind of combination of the academic interest in the personal case for us.

[22:32] I guess the next question is do you think men are adequately equipped.
To serve appropriately as mentors for women do they have the.
The background and the appreciation of the female experience if you will.
To really be able to Be an Effective mentor.

[22:57] Yeah there’s so much in that question Randy and I would say that men are somewhere on a Continuum here right so we can’t
talk about men as a monolith there are some men who I think are really well prepared they feel confident they feel competent in terms of how to show up in cross-gender mentorships and there are a lot of other men on the farther end of the spectrum the other direction who
just either anxious
they don’t see it as their place they have all kinds of biases about women so for different reasons they’re not able or willing to engage
but can men do this absolutely and I think in real irony here is that it’s not about
understanding everything about women’s experiences I don’t think we can do that but we can show up with the genuine humility and a learning orientation and
an openness to learning about the experiences of women and openness
to learning about gender bias in the workplace and self-educating a bed and then when we get to these actual relationships in the workplace
checking in with women that we care about we’re working with it maybe as mentors and just say hey I’ve been learning about this or reading about it has this been part of your experience would it be okay if I asked you.

[24:17] About some of the things that you’ve encountered just so I can be
better and more aware and maybe more effective as a good colleague to you in the workplace
if I could show up with that kind of humility and openness and authenticity.

[24:32] I don’t have to know everything about a woman’s experience I think she’s more inclined to trust me and kind of walk along with me as I work to get better and learn how I can be a better Mentor for her
that’s a very encouraging idea along those same lines I’m really interested to know what do you think is.

[24:55] The most difficult part of recruiting men to be mentors for women.

[25:03] Yet again you know when Dave and I were doing the research for Athena Rising our very first.
Which is all about cross-gender mentoring we found so many reasons men stay on the sidelines Randy we actually developed this term reluctant male syndrome
maybe it could maybe it’s going to be a diagnosis that’s a very good one there are so many elements here you know I’ll just mention a few anxiety
I was surprised in our research just how many men are anxious about this I don’t want to step in it I don’t want to make a mistake I don’t want to say the wrong thing I feel really sensitive about that some men are afraid of rumors and gossip right if I’m
spending time mentoring a junior woman are is there going to be talk is there going to be conversation about what’s really going on.
A lot of men have implicit biases that they’re just not aware of around gender so in Psychology there’s this wonderful stream of research called the women are wonderful
and essentially you ask men what do you think of women and they say oh women are great I love women they’re kind they’re gentle the caring but what you don’t hear.

[26:12] Is that women are competent they’re terrific leaders you know they’re ready to for that next promotion
if I’m only thinking about women as caring and compassionate it makes sense that I’m not going to lean into the mentoring and sponsoring
for relationships and then last thing I’ll just say I think
me to exacerbated all of this right and and this is no fault of women of course but
men have come up with some false narratives about what me to is about you know me to is simply about women asking to come to work and not be assaulted or harassed really low bar for men to get over but instead of that.
The Narrative has been that women are dangerous they make false accusations simply not true we’ve looked at the data it’s incredibly rare so we’ve got to push back
on the false narratives about not engaging and last thing
I think a lot of men frankly even though their heart is in the right place about this they want to be part of the solution.
They just don’t know what to do so it’s just a flat-out tool or technique issue for some men I think that’s a really good point.
That you bring up with respect to making the decision that you want to be part of the.

[27:30] Solution rather than part of the problem I grew up in.
The South and the 50s and 60s and of course we were dealing with race at that time
and I understand that feeling of trepidation.

[27:50] When it comes to walking up to someone whose culture and background and experiences you know nothing about.

[27:58] And saying can I help what would be your advice on to someone who is standing in those shoes.
There are a lot of us in that place and I’m glad you you pulled race in here too because I think a lot of the behaviors and the attitudes that lead to terrific allyship
across gender
apply very nicely to race and sexual orientation and other differences I mean you know if you just take things on the inner personal side of
terrific allyship how do I show up and hold myself accountable and relationships I mean it includes things like
like listening generously and avoiding assumptions and making sure that these folks are included you know did they get invited to the meeting or the social event it involves really.

[28:49] Passing the friend test meaning that you know this person would never hear something that I said about them behind their back that wasn’t positive when they’re not in the room
those things are important when it comes to gender but they’re also important when it comes to other minoritized groups you know like my black colleagues or black women specifically so I think if I can Master some of these in just in terms of the way I show up
you know with the openness
I think that’s going to be very effective and you ask maybe what would be a really great entree just to show that I’m open and would like to be
part of this person’s you know Network may be moving forward I love the idea of the contextualized offer you know so I don’t want to go up to somebody and say I’d like to Mentor you right that’s just awkward
but to say hey I’ve noticed some of the work that you’ve been doing or I heard you give that talk the other day and I thought it was terrific.
And I was thinking wow we were lucky to get you on board here and I was just wondering what.

[29:56] What do we need to do to keep you here and you know if you’d ever loved have a conversation about next steps or where you’d like to go in your career and how I might contribute
my doors open and I’d always be delighted just to chat with you about that that kind of contextualized affirming offer that’s an easy lift and most people
or going to probably take you up on that do you think that there are probably a great many more men that are capable.

[30:26] Of serving in that role in there are but they’re just holding themselves back because of the feeling of inadequacy.

[30:35] I think so I think I think a lot of men who are somewhere
early on their Ally you know Continuum experience or their Journey
really could be leaning into this and I think again it’s recognizing that this is something for me
and I love reframing this as hey this is not a woman’s thing you know if you’re a guy in medicine and you have some Rank and you have some power this is not you know mentoring women or
participating in a sponsorship program for talented Junior women in your med school or your hospital this is not a woman’s thing it’s not really just a gender thing
this is part of your leadership brand right this is part of how you show up as a male in the 21st century workplace
making sure that you got an inclusive mindset
that you show up with humility and authenticity that you actually hold yourself accountable to achieving
Targets on you know pulling more women into leadership roles and having a part in that this should just be part of your leadership brand I think as soon as we men realize there’s a lot in this for us.
For getting to get over the idea that you know anything related to gender Dustin include us.

[31:59] Hi I’m Rhonda Crow founder and CEO Forum D coaches here on RX for Success we interview a lot of great medical professionals on how they grew their careers
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[34:08] And now let’s get back to today’s interview it’s really an important topic.

[34:19] In medicine today because of the numbers that you have
referred to already and it is absolutely critical that we do something to keep everybody that’s trained in medicine
in medicine for a reasonable period of time if we don’t do that we’ve got a bad situation that’s going.
Go much worse than it already is you have written eloquently
about the subject bread the book is called Good Guys how men can become better allies for women in the workplace I regret that I have not
but able to read it yet but I’m looking forward to it I know it’s going to be a great read and I want to thank you for
being with us today but this is the point where I’m actually going to turn the program over to you I’m going to close my mic
and dr. Brad Johnson is going to give us his personal prescriptions for success.

[35:13] Okay I have been looking forward to this and it’s been a bit of a challenge to think of my you know really terse and pithy
prescriptions for success but I’m going to try and go ahead and do it right now so I have I have three things that I think I would.
Pass along to an earlier iteration of myself and two Junior colleagues that are maybe leaning into the earlier phase of their career and
I guess these are some nuggets that are sort of hard-earned for me and so number one.

[35:48] I encourage an earlier version of myself too.
Embrace change in career trajectory and I want to give context for this so right out of
grad school after laboring for six years and a clinical psych Ph.D program and then four years of residency and postdoctoral work
you know I’m 10 years in now to my PhD in Clinical Psychology journey and really
all of my work had been clinical for the most part and I had a sense that that’s what gosh that was my training I need to become a practicing clinical psychologist.

[36:29] And here’s what I began to notice
the thing that I really look forward to during the day was if I had a cancellation I loved it because I would immediately spend that 45 or 50 minutes.
Working on an article or something I was writing and at occurred to me that
I loved writing and I love teaching I started teaching during this time and was teaching adjunct courses at a university in Hawaii and it began to occur to me that this is what
made me happy it wasn’t so much the clinical work although I felt I was pretty good at it and was helpful to a lot of clients I didn’t love it.
And that was a bit of an epiphany and it was hard for me and I’ll never forget
sitting with my doctoral supervisor / Mentor I should say post doctoral supervisor Captain Betsy homes I’m sitting with her we’re doing our clinical supervision
and I shared with her hey Betsy I think I’d love to be an academician not a practitioner.

[37:35] And she looks at me and says of course of course that would be a perfect fit for you that’s obvious and it was such a weight off my shoulder to have a mentor.
Look at me who really knew me and say yep I see that I see that in you too you need to do that you’d be great at it.
And I just encourage others listening to this to think about what it is you love to do when you have two hours off
what is that and and is there some way that you could do that professionally or do more of that and you know give yourself permission
to pursue it that made all the difference for me and by the way my mentor was instrumental later and hiring me to the Naval Academy several years later
and that was that was you know a game changer for me career-wise second thing make sure
that you own Your Privilege I’m going to keep this really brief but it’s taken me a long time to recognize as a senior white man actually a tall white man I have incredible privilege and you know I
sort of begun to understand this is this hidden knapsack or backpack I’ve been carrying around my whole my whole life that’s open doors given me opportunities you know this is
something I didn’t earn but I have enjoyed the benefits of this.

[38:59] Here’s why this is important it’s only when I recognize I carry this knapsack around that I can begin to use it and use it
really deliberately to level the playing field I think in the case of the work I’ve been doing in the last decade level the playing field for women
my female colleagues I have a lot of
Capital that I get to share as a senior white male people look at me of meetings and expect me to speak first and I can easily say Hey you know we should be hearing from Tanya on this because she’s the expert
I have so many opportunities every day.
To share and use my privilege and sponsor people who really should be getting the air time so think about that if you’ve got any kind of hidden knapsack which many of us do think about how you use it and last thing.

[39:50] Nurture and inner core and the inner core
of people ideally people who don’t all look like you other people in the profession who really trust you.
Who you you trust in turn and establish some kind of caring Community with this inner core of people who will give you feedback when you’re getting it wrong
when when things are not going well these are the people who are going to circle the wagons around you.
This became really important for me a decade ago when I was diagnosed with a non-cancerous brain tumor.

[40:26] And just going through the stress of the medical diagnosis and the radiation that followed I was not doing competent work I wasn’t doing a great job teaching I was I was you know things were falling through the cracks and it was this inner core of people
who circled the wagons around me gave me the feedback but also really showed up with a caring orientation
the really helped me get through that effectively and in retrospect I encourage everyone to be deliberate about thinking about who’s at inner core who are they going to be in the case of gender and equity
who’s going to hold those women if you’re a male who are going to give you the hard feedback about what you are getting wrong and what you need to be better with
so I’m going to go ahead and leave it there but those are the things I think I’d like to share with you today well that’s some really good advice
Brad and I really appreciate you sharing it with us there is some really good stuff in there for all of us
and again I’m so glad that you took the time to be with us
before we go today I want to give you an opportunity to let people know where they can find you and a little bit more about where to find the book and anything else you’d like to share what have you got.

[41:42] I was so enjoyed this conversation with you Randy but I would say last thing
go out and do a little audit and think about who you’re mentoring and sponsoring right now and if they all look just like you asked yourself why and think about how you might.
Increase the diversity of the folks that you’re working with that’s a great call to action I’ll mention that the book.
Which I will give the title one more time just to make sure that I don’t mess it up good guys
how men can become better allies for women in the workplace I know for sure that it’s available on Amazon and lots of other places I’m sure and I hope the audience will take and take the opportunity to check it out.
The brief time that we’ve had today is.
Made it very clear that you’ve got a lot of wisdom and a lot of good advice to offer so I hope people will take advantage of that and.
And pick up the book and Brad Johnson thanks again for being with us on prescription for.

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