The Educator: Rochelle Frank, MD, FAAN

[0:00] I just feel there’s so many ways that all of us want tools to do more than the simple ones that are tool chest of.
Drugs Pharmaceuticals and maybe some procedures and things there’s so many ways that we’d like to be able to look at the whole person.
And how do we do that in a visit in a practical way.

[0:22] Paging dr. cook paging dr. cook dr. Turk you wanted in the OR.

[0:32] Music.

[0:55] Hello everyone and welcome to prescription for success.

[1:00] I’m dr. Randy cook your host for the podcast which is a production of MD coaches.
Providing leadership and Executive coaching for Physicians by physicians.

[1:12] To overcome burnout transition your career develop as a leader or whatever your goal might be visit MD coaches on the web.
At my MD coaches.com because you’re not in this alone my guest today is not only a neurologist,
she’s also board certified and integrative and holistic medicine as well and as an associate professor at California North State University College of Medicine.
She’s helping medical students learn the importance of a holistic approach to Medical practice so.
Let’s hear my conversation with dr. Rochelle Frank.

[1:55] What a great pleasure it is for me to be speaking today with dr. Rochelle Frank happen.

[2:02] Northern California Rochelle it’s so nice to have you on prescription for success and thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today.

[2:09] Thank you for having me Randy happy to be here.
Well I’m really looking for really looking forward to the conversation and as we always do I want to begin with your origin story.

[2:21] And I know that you did your undergraduate work at U C Berkeley and.
Biophysics and I’m interested to know if at that point in time you knew that you were headed for a career in medicine or was this something that came later.

[2:39] Well it’s interesting it’s a very good question I actually went back to my college essay.
And the main thing I had in it is that I wanted to be a neuroscience research but I did write that I as a clinician which I had forgotten when I got to UC Berkeley I quickly became a physics major
and really enjoyed my time and physics and it wasn’t until my last year that I started thinking about the fact that I might want to be in medicine and changed
to taking a lot of courses in Biochemistry and biology and chemistry
and realized that I’d rather major in biophysics because my original plan was
doing a graduate degree in biophysics of PhD and then going into Neuroscience so neuro is the theme and Medicine
came in by the end of college I see I wonder if you will be surprised that we were coming very close to having recorded.

[3:39] 100 episodes and you are the very first person that I’ve spoken to that has a major in biophysics.
You want to tell the audience a little bit about what exactly that is.
That is blood looks like it’s a very good question I can tell you it no longer even exists at UC Berkeley
yeah so it really was an interesting discipline that was rigorous that included.
Physics and some upper Division and areas of physics along with looking at biological sciences
that through a physics lens through a lens of a harder science
I can say that at that time there was a lot of molecular biology.

[4:26] Electrophysiology and neurophysiology and there wasn’t anything specific that I would say Define the field and that’s probably why it doesn’t exist as a field anymore but I think it really includes out approach.
Of hard science to the biological sciences and that would probably be the way to define it I haven’t thought about it in years and I hope I’m not miss defining it at this point but that is what I the reason I liked it
well perhaps more importantly I’m interested to know do you think it really prepared you well for medical school.

[4:59] Oh absolutely I’d say most of my time again at uc-berkeley I was truly a straight physics major and learning to think
was really useful for me I feel like that physics taught me that rigor.
Of how to approach problems and that was definitely helpful in clinical reasoning and thinking and I will add that when I was doing physiology it in medical school I remember
that doing some of the equations and things were much easier and enjoyable for me for that yeah yeah and and then the other.
Pertinent question or at least I think it’s a pertinent question is do you feel like.
That that background really prepared you well not only for medical school but proof for medical practice what do you think.
I do think so if there’s something about the whole background of physics and biophysics that had me look at
the way the physical world in the biological World worked and that could play that two organisms and definitely in neurology there’s a lot of mechanics of movements and things that you know knowing that way of approaching things was helpful.
And how did you finally make that decision it sounds like in the early part of your education you really weren’t.

[6:16] Entirely sure what your final path would be so how did you make that decision to make it medical school,
that’s a very good question I was working at Lawrence Berkeley laboratory and they were doing actually I was in biophysics and they were using the heavy on accelerator there to do.
Treatment for cancer with heavy ion radiation and that would give the radiation and.
Very specific place and so it was look you know so that the group I was working with was trying to figure out how to do the deposition into the right exact location which is more targeted targeted exactly so.
I think that I was noticing I just really wanted to work more directly with people and
not as much in research lab enjoyed my research experience and I really enjoyed the interactions I had with people and more directly impacting them day-to-day and.
That’s what had me start thinking about them or day-to-day.

[7:21] Career that included people and had more direct relevance to you know the world,
applied right away by b.c. a person and being able to give them something I’m glad you brought up that people connection because.
My next question is what about medical school do you think it prepared you well for that interconnection between human beings and science,
oh that’s an interesting question I really felt I was at UC San Diego and I really felt they gave it a good effort
I would say that the culture of medicine the place I’ve felt that there was room for improvement really was a human connection and that
is what has given me the passion for many of the things I do now so I can’t say it prepared me but I really say it has to do with the culture around medicine.

[8:15] As a whole and not specifically my medical school which I think actually was better than many especially since at that time which wasn’t true everywhere I was in a past not pass School.
They did have honors for.
Some courses that they added but there was a lot less pressure in that way it wasn’t as common than for everything to be passed not passed which I do think was an encouragement to look at the humanistic side of things sure,
and what about the next step internship and residency did you feel that you were in a place where you are immediately comfortable or.
Did you feel even at that young age that something wasn’t quite right well I did feel that the whole culture of Medicine
did have room for more of a humanistic approach in retrospect I realize I did some things that I didn’t even think about consciously and I don’t know if I’ve even thought about till you asked which is I was at a program for.

[9:16] That was it’s now called Street Scripps Mercy Hospital in San Diego but it was Mercy Hospital at that point and it was a transitional year.

[9:26] And I worked directly with Community fact faculty for the most part so
it was a little different than many programs and then my program in Chapel Hill at the time I worked more directly with my attendings and many of them were clinicians which was part of what attracted me to the program so I think even.
When I wasn’t thinking about it
I really do think I ended up seeing that I wanted to work with clinicians and see their experience
and how I could translate that to my clinical experience with patients and.
I chose not highly academic research programs for that reason without even knowing I was doing that.

[10:12] After your training you made the decision to come back to the West Coast or.
The western United States at any rate and you practiced at the Permanente group for a good long time like 18 years with the Permanente group just tell me about what that
the experience was like here you are fully trained and now you’re in.
Quote Private Practice you’re dealing with patients who are your patients did you feel immediately at home or again was there.
Something else it made you feel like you were going to end up someplace else even at that young age I really was interested in the permanent to Medical Group I found I was attracted to it because I.
Didn’t have to look at the pressures of a lot of things you might have to in a traditional private practice that I could focus.

[11:11] Completely on my patience and that was something I really liked and I liked being in a group that was very oriented towards working together in a system where there was a you know it was an integrated system that really
we needed to work together to create our goals and give care to the community
and that was something I really liked I will say that my chair s Chief who was my chief starting a year or two into my practice dr. George Palma was one of my mentors and teachers and I
very much appreciate all he taught me and I’ll never forget my first year there he said you know Rochelle I know you think clinical medicine will always be,
everything you need and you’ll find that you might want to do other things along the way and you can do that here and I would encourage you to think what kinds of things you want to get involved in that you know will enhance what you do in the group.
That’s kind of rare I think yeah it was amazing that he said that to me and I really took it to heart.

[12:14] And as I went on I started doing work.
And I just loved at the permanency Medical Group that included the ways I knew some
people like dr. Abramson which was related to being a communication consultant and work with physician health and wellness so the hole,
unfolding of all of that was from keeping my eyes and what kinds of things I wanted to contribute and it really was like a family and I learned so much.
And then the time came that you decided.

[12:49] You’re going to make another significant career move after 18 years at the Permanente group you moved over to academics again at California North State University
did they come looking for you or did you seek them out
that’s that’s a very interesting question because it was really one of those Serendipity sort of situations I was starting to explore what I would want to do that would enhance clinical work
and I really saw that the main thing that interested me I’ve thought about public health along the way
part of the reason I went to Chapel Hills my husband got his public health degree in Chapel Hill and I was looking but what else might I want to do and I really saw that
what I’d love to do is teach and a series of circumstances LED.

[13:39] In an unusual way for me to having a conversation that led to me going to California North State and it was one of those things where oh I don’t want to go to that retirement party and I ended up going and talking to somebody
that I didn’t expect to talk to about it and there was even more to the story but it was really one of those
things that was meant to be hi I’m Rhonda Crowe founder and CEO Forum D coaches
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[15:07] We’ll get back to our interview in just a moment but right now I want to tell you a little bit about physician Outlook.

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[16:10] And now let’s get back to today’s interview so you joined their faculty and.
2016 and right away some of your responsibilities were neurology clerkship director,
and I gather part of that had to do with the fact that you really wanted to be involved with medical students am I correct about that yeah the comfort in our state is a very new school and really.
We are teaching medical students at is part of it’s a similar theme to what I mentioned earlier where a lot of the faculty are very experienced clinicians and I feel like we really are.
Great people to teach physician you know our new Physicians what it’s like and what I particularly liked is these experienced clinicians.
Still.
Kept their love of patience and love of being Physicians so that we can pass on and and students can see that you can keep that alive for 20-30 years and still,
you know be able to teach so so I was clerkship director you know a creating the programming there.

[17:25] And soon after I got there I was recruited to,
help direct and then be one of the main directors for a program we call Masters colloquium which like saying is everything but the Core Curriculum and that involves.
Things like communication ethics.
Public health and Global Health diversity also service and professionalism Wellness.
And Healthcare systems and that was a challenge that I really what I really loved was when I got to North stay there was the opportunity in the room for me to create new programming and
I just went for it what do you have any idea of where that.
Idea came from where that opportunity came from because it really is to say that it’s.
Anything but Core Curriculum is clearly under state but it’s really revolutionary and I suspect you’re going to tell me that.
I was just fortunate concatenation of people and circumstances but I’d like I’d like to hear how you saw it as coming into view what I can say is when I got there the structure,
had already been established for Masters colloquium which was having to our mandatory sessions that were every other week or a little bit more often than that.

[18:48] And part of the structure was we have.
What we call colleges so the medical school class is divided into smaller groups of around 20 that.
Can have their own College Community as they’re going through their preclinical years and get to know people more closely so a lot of this course the curriculum was
going to be taught by the college Masters
and there had been some creation of a curriculum that I and another person dr. Louise Glaser followed when we were trying to expand the curriculum
and what we found was that some of the things really would Merit
a true Master you know someone coming in who really knew about health care or worked in global Health overseas and some of the sessions really needed to be with all of us together and then discussing and smaller groups some of the aspects so
played around with the curriculum I don’t know if that’s the best way to say but we really looked at what we could you know what what things we could do and.
We both had extensive experience in teaching communication and brought those kinds of things to it.
So we just really looked at what was needed we created in the curriculum committee a subcommittee task force of what subjects to really make sure we cover.

[20:16] And people in the group look throughout the country at what subjects were covered that were the I don’t know if not curriculum is the right word not Core Curriculum but we looked what things to include and we just.
Went through the sign topics and many of them were already there and then we looked at which ones to add which ones to put together and.
We’re continuing to do that we just added a Humanities one this year that went over very well with the students so we’re always looking at what what can we add and what can we really.
Have be useful because this is mandatory time and my approaches I know this is nothing that students when they’re
really trying to learn all this data that they’re going to say oh I want to put aside this time so I really want to make it very valuable I know that they’re not going to remember details or.
Specific facts but I want them.
The first time they’re dealing with wow I actually did have some experience with how to deal with the challenging patient or well we did actually talk about
how to treat somebody when you’re a physician treating a physician and realize that these are issues that we can discuss or diversity or all these kinds of things.

[21:35] You have an item in there called the Emma for wellness elective now.
Recognizing that I was in medical school at about the time fire was discovered there was.
Certainly nothing in my curriculum of that sort I’d love for you to share with our audience exactly what that is and.
How it works and who benefits.

[21:59] I’d be happy to so I would like to take a step back and first talk about the first elective I created because ocean that that actually is part of what I can say about the wellness selective so.
When I first arrived at Kaiser within a couple months they had this amazing program where Rachel Naomi remen spoke to all of us about.

[22:25] Being a physician and she really resonated with me we received a copy of her book kitchen table wisdom.
Which is a bunch of vignettes and I highly recommended it’s about being a physician about being a patient and about
seeing her patience and just all of the different ways that experience being a physician all all the stories are
only a few pages are less and.
I started tracking just the kind of work she was doing over the next 20 years and she started a course called the healers art course and.
What I always wanted to be involved in it and really the.
Very short time after I landed at seeing you I said I would love to bring this course to seeing you and I got support to do it I was actually really,
grateful to seeing you because they not only supported me and getting trained to be a director but another person in the two of us spent time learning how to direct this course.

[23:27] And it is a course that has been around since the early 90s in over 100 medical schools in even in some other schools like veterinary schools and it really speaks to humanistic care and,
has been one of the most amazing experiences I’ve had what we started with the students almost immediately the first year I think 25 or 30 of the M1 and M2 classes because this is directed towards preclinical signed up
and now the last class was over sixty percent of the last couple of 50 to 60 in
it’s getting more and more over sixty percent of the classes are signing up for this course of a given class and
that really gives people a chance to talk to a clinician in a group of just.

[24:17] Five people and a clinician for over five sessions about very serious topics like how do we stay whole in medicine how do we deal with grief and loss how do we deal with how do we experience mystery and awe
and staying with a sense of purpose and services a way of life and we just completed that course in the last few weeks and.
It’s it’s again just amazing and I always have some student directors and it’s amazing to all work together in this community.

[24:46] So that course has been in existence since 2018.

[24:53] So this is gone for five years now this was the fifth year and.
That after that first year my colleague Louise gave glaze her also said you know we really could create.
An elective we’re in the fourth year people can look back because this really is geared towards first year students for the most part.
And we have an elective on mindfulness we had an elective on leadership and there was a lot of interest in the art of writing.

[25:23] So in the wellness elective.
We combined those three things as four separate courses running together over a month and the feeling was that the that each of those would be very hard for students to take as an elective on its own at that point in there.
Medical school training but if all four of them were together over four weeks they cave take a really deep dive as they were leaving for completing their fourth year and going on to residency
to really reflect and really have some tools.

[25:56] So when people hear Wellness they think it might be kind of easygoing thing but it actually is a pretty deep dive and reflection for people we just completed that course two weeks ago with the fourth group.
Of students and that was it was absolutely amazing the 14th students that were in the course
the part that was narrative writing we have expanded things to a doctor Marty Rubin who has created an amazing Humanities curriculum and we included
things like improv and Medicine we have a magician in our ranks as a student who’s very passionate about magic and Medicine in there was even a noon session on that.
There was rioting there was looking at art there was looking at music there was looking at compassion and kindness in other ways that we’re all part of this.

[26:49] That’s section that used to be narrative writing and of course there was narrative medicine as well and we had a wellness talk.
As well from someone who ran Wellness for Northern California Kaiser for over a decade so
he’s also at seeing you at this point so we’ve just done so many the students had opportunities to look in so many ways and they really appreciated this chance the course was run right before.
They went for matchday so they had those few weeks before to really reflect after they done their interviews before they matched and thought about what next steps were there for them
and we used to run it during the time of match and we realized that it was better to run it before so so it’s been a really unique opportunity.
To work very closely with students who now had experienced some very important.
Life experiences in medicine and can reflect in a different way on some of the topics we covered I think it’s a really brilliant idea and I do hope.

[27:50] The idea is spreading because I think it’s very overdue if I may say so before we got get on into your prescriptions for Success which I’m really anxious to hear.

[28:04] I would like for you to talk to us as for as long as you would like to talk to us about.

[28:09] The growth of your interest in integrative medicine and holistic medicine which I think is so important you know when I think back.
To our hero
Hippocrates there was not much science around at that time but yet he was apparently a well respected physician but we’ve lost some of that to my way of thinking so can you just talk to us a little bit about.
How that notion has come into your way of looking at medicine today.

[28:44] Yes I’d love to and thanks for asking
I did want to talk about a couple other programs at the medical school that I think are relevant and they actually are related to humanistic care and integrative medicine also
what one of the two other things that we’ve done at the school that I feel very good about one is we created a
Wellness committee a student wellness committee and I really did model it after
I worked with dr. John Chuck for almost a decade on the physician Wellness committee at Kaiser and then I also am working with him now in the medical society and another Wellness committee joined medicine and what I loved is he would always.

[29:29] Bring each of us to bring our interests and passions to the committee to give to others and talked about how all Wellness is local and this is a theme I see when I see Wellness programming that you really have to look at what’s going on for your community.

[29:43] So I had no desire to create some programs that I thought out and then just give them to the students.

[29:49] And I had this amazing group of students about 12 to 14 and said hey let’s create a wellness committee and they just.
Did an amazing job of creating programming telling us what they really needed and since Senate is only grown and
the group right now is just a stronger and stronger each year this particular group there as well over 20 students in the class that is currently and one’s going to their M2 year and
just so many of them were interested in leading leadership was almost the amount of the committee like 12 of them wanted to lead this committee so I just got a rare yeah I know they’re incredible and there’s a lot of subcommittees than they’re doing things related to.
Physical well-being nutrition mental health we have some internet and National sorts of organizations like walk with a doc that we’re also as affiliated with there’s mentorship there’s Arts and Music and.
Service and all kinds of things and even things that have grown and
went outside the committee like to you know doing mentoring Mentor he’s part of the committee but tutoring and other things so I wanted to share that because I do think
what I saw is when we gave the students and I just appreciate seeing you so much giving us these opportunities to try new things when we.

[31:09] Give the students the chance to just say what do you see as important to do this year.

[31:16] We’ve had you know some activities are related to Day of the Dead and
you know remembering people especially refugees and all kinds of things that happened you know Wellness days and specific Wellness activities that I’ve just been very impressed with what they’ve created and continue to create
and the last thing I wanted to mention is I got trained a Kaiser for leading balint groups which I really appreciate and brought a group.
With a balanced cell conversation called connect the docks to Kaiser which just grew organically and it started with just.
You know a locally with our thousand Physicians I worked to have it at 10 or 12 sites and recruited about 20 liters
and then we had people regionally that said hey we’d love to do this and it ended up going to almost every
part of the region and Kaiser we and while I was there is still trained I think I trained about 150 liters and its continuing to grow
and I just am amazed by the it’s still going to continue to exist covid certainly affected things but it’s amazing that is continuing and I took those same skills and passion to balint groups which I run for the medical society
and for the students and there’s a violent group that we meet every two weeks and almost half the students have participated at during their third year.

[32:42] And even created a course related to navigating the doctor-patient relationship and these groups I must say I think that’s one of the things for people to talk about cases about the doctor-patient relationship that are real cases and exploring what’s going on in those cases.
Both allows people to sort out what they’re dealing with and to create community and to even have some tangible ways to approach things.

[33:05] So those are the other things I want to share yeah and I’d like for you to make sure that.
People know how to learn some more about that I when I when I was researching you this was my first exposure to balint group.
But it’s spelled b8l int balanced group and you would you like to tell the audience how they can.
I get online and find out more about that it sounds like just an incredibly useful Endeavor to be involved in
absolutely and balanced groups were brought to this country in the early 1990s and
people who are in Family Medicine often are aware of them I would say I’ve learned over the years that some people actually had a true balint group and some people did not so I would I would encourage people who have heard of them to also make sure what they had was a true discussion about
the doctor-patient relationship in this format the American balance Society.

[34:03] The ABS is has balanced groups training to become leaders and they run balance groups of people can just join
in the last few years they’ve made the effort to become virtual and that has been very successful and all the groups I run I started by running them for the students in person but
third year that was very challenging for them.
So now I run them in the evenings around 7:30 every other week and here’s the funny thing I asked for a zoom account.
In 2019 and people ask me what’s Zoom well
that was really funny because just a few months later everyone was trying to grab that I can’t want to count that had existed for the University
but in any case so if covid did one thing to his I don’t think there’s anybody who is not familiar with zoom pardon the interruption please go no fleas and and American balanced Society
also runs their balance groups I think it is on zoom in it and that format so it actually works incredibly well and I’m now running two groups for the Sacramento ComEd
Sacramento medical society that have we’ve done it a few months at a time but both groups have been ongoing one of them almost two years now and they’re asking me to start a third group.

[35:18] So you know there’s a real
real needed a real interest in people being able to discuss these issues the American balance Society is the best place to turn and I’m certainly happy to field any questions about that
there’s also a video I spoke at the Joint medicine Summit for our local Society where I gave an introduction to balance groups and that
clip is available through their website as well.

[35:41] Well let me just briefly say something about integrative medicine because you did ask me about that and I would say please do I know I have a lot of passion about a few things and I really saw how much I
I have practice since the beginning wanting to look at the whole person
and what I’m happy to say is there’s just a growing community and more and more established ways to have evidence-based approaches that are mainstream for this kind of work
and I continue to be very passionate about it in the America and
Academy of Neurology the am currently the vice chair of the neuro health and integrative neurology section and I got board-certified initially in 2012 and then there’s been a more
rigorous board that start in 2016 that I grandfathered into and I’m going to be the chair starting with the next.

[36:36] Cycle for the A and in this section which is starting this may and I just feel there’s so many ways that all of us want tools to do more than the simple ones in our tool chest of
drugs Pharmaceuticals and maybe some procedures and things there’s so many ways that we’d like to be able to look at the whole person
and how do we do that in a visit
in a practical way and that’s really my passion now and something I teach the students and look at the placebo effect and look at Mind Body Work and how can we
take all the different aspects that can Empower patients and how can they utilize them for their health and well-being
and I would say that integrated medicine focuses on health.

[37:21] Rather than focuses on disease so we’re trying to move towards how do we give people who have disease the best quality of life.
And the interest of time I won’t say more but there is more I could say about that,
I’m sure and we might even have you come back and talk about that some more because I think it’s a really fascinating subject and
one other thing that I’m interested in knowing is you probably
well you might have some data on this but I remember a mentor of mine early in my career likes to talk about the fact that in America we don’t really have a Healthcare System we have a disease care system which.
It’s certainly at that time was true you all at Californian North State or clearly.

[38:06] Making some progress in changing that mindset and I’m wondering if you have a sense for.
How much of a spread is there Beyond California North day.
Yes that’s a really good question I think that the spread is really happening in my career and just seeing how much of a community there is and this is what I encourage the students I’ve created email list and I’m amazed to say that.

[38:32] Of the first to climb there’s over 30 or 35 students on the list interested in this area specifically and a lot of people come to medical school.
I really think this way and then they learn some other ways you know I’d say that most of the major universities in my area most of the universe UCS University of California system has an integrative Medicine Department
a lot of the major Healthcare systems and there is a Consortium of Integrative Medicine areas and there’s there’s over
70 or 80 major institutions and you know places like the Cleveland Clinic have taken it to another level as well as Mayo so this is really getting
more and more I think these areas of wellness and in Integrative Medicine all these things are growing
and they’re just so needed and really they will be cost-effective there’s a lot of it that can be no doubt yeah
so there’s much I can say about that like I said yeah
well Rochelle this has really been a fascinating conversation I knew it would be when I read your bio and I am serious about possibly having you back to explore some of these.

[39:47] Some of these ideas in more detail but in the interest of time what I would like to do at this point is back out of your way for just a moment and we’ll get to the part of the program that I like the best.
And I’m going to close my Mike and dr. Rochelle Frank is going to share with us her personal prescriptions for success
well thank you Randy I appreciate that I gave some thought of this and one of the first things I really wanted to say is to be kind.
When I say that I actually have.
Something at my desk that says to be kind and it’s mainly to be kind to yourself and of course to others this includes knowing your boundaries one of the things I find is.
People really are interested in giving to others and that’s a lot of the reason we go into this profession.
But then it’s very hard to keep that compassion and I see my medical students wondering can I be the doctor I want to be to my patients
I think the main way we can do that is remembering how to say yes and no and no boundaries and trust me I’m still learning this myself but when we can know,
how and when we what we can do and when we can actually give permission to ourselves to say no we can stay compassionate and we can just give a little of ourselves in those situations that we can’t give so much.

[41:07] Another thing would be to trust your own instincts I realized
when I was a medical student there were so many times that I would kind of feel like I’d want to do something a little different than I saw my physician to but I thought they knew best
and I learned I actually did know really well and I encourage you to keep those things in mind so that when you are that physician if you are a medical student or somewhere along the way
to allow that part to show up because you really know that also includes what do you want to do for your career or your next steps I feel like the best advice I ever got was.
We’re on a Winding Road in life,
and we never know the next turn we just know where we are right now and what we want to put our passion on and maybe you can hear from my story that I always put my passion to where I am now and it really led to the next turn.

[41:59] When I look back even at this times of illness and biggest challenges for me I see how everything connected and how I grew.

[42:08] But at the time we can’t know that so just really trust that you’ll do what you need if you focus on what’s important to you and the last one I was going to say of the three was allow for complexity.
Especially in medicine.
This is something an integrative Medicine where we really can look at the whole person I feel like sometimes we focus on a solution and an easy answer and I’ve seen that sometimes when I had second and third opinions that.
What the physician missed was they jumped from a few facts to a conclusion
instead of allowing for the real complexity of what’s going on and this is true in many situations in life
when we allow that complexity that dimensionality the different aspects of the different things I think we can come up with much better diagnosis and solutions
well beyond medicine and the only other thing I wanted to say was kind of a bonus stay curious and in wonder.
And for me this team has been staying in the inquiry in life when I keep asking and don’t look for answers but look for what is going on I can stay in wonder.
Just like a young child.

[43:13] And I really think this is the biggest antidote to burnout and this is something that dr. Raymond says in the healers art course when we talk about awe and wonder and mystery is staying in that.
Can Keep Us Alive and engaged wherever in life and that’s what I wanted to share thank you Randy for giving me that opportunity.
Rochelle that is really some uncommonly wise advice and I appreciate you taking the time to share with us today
before we go I want to give you an opportunity to let our audience know where they can find you with whatever you’d like to share or email addresses or websites or whatever so
you have the floor.
No I do think the best email to give would be my direct email which is Rochelle Frank and me.com
and that would just be my name at me.com will with that I think people ought to be able to chase you down and in fact
you know it’s the 21st century and if someone wants to get on the internet and Google dr. Rochelle Frank I’m sure they will find all kinds of things about you and I have an idea that a lot
they’re going to want to do exactly that Rochelle it has been a great pleasure speaking with you today and thank you so much for joining us on prescription for success.

[44:30] Thank you Randy it’s been a pleasure being here.

[44:35] Thank you so much for joining us today as always we really appreciate a review from you.
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[45:26] Music.