Life Changing Moments: Wrestling with Trauma with Dr. Omar Reda

Transcript

[0:00] Just a note before starting to listen to this podcast the sound quality on my microphone during this interview Was really poor, but don’t let that distract from the amazing story that dr Rita shares as his sound quality was excellent, My intention was not to fight actually a group of fighters came to me While I was doing a psychosocial activities with orphan children and they said oh Mario are a fighting age you should be on the front lines and I taught them taking care of these children is my front line.
I’m not going to have any blood on my hands. There are times in our lives that change the way we see the world. Navigating these challenges can take insight, trusted confidence, or even a coach.
Let’s explore those moments. In this companion podcast to RX for Success, we will discover ways to learn and write our own success stories together. I’m Dr. Dale Waxman, a physician coach with MD Coaches, and this is Life Changing Moments.

[1:04] Music.

[1:12] Today we’re talking with Dr. Omar Rida. Dr. Rida was our guest for RX for Success episode number 119. And like other guests that we’ve had on Life Changing Moments, I heard something in that podcast that piqued my interest and I wanted to invite him back. Before we get into that, what that something was, a bit of background about Dr. Rita. Omar Rita is a board-certified psychiatrist. He’s a.

[1:40] Harvard-trained trauma expert and author and a family advocate. He’s originally from Libya and as we’ll discuss has quite a story about fleeing and then returning to this war-torn country. Omar, welcome to Life Changing Moments.
Thank you, Dale. Such a pleasure to be with you today. Yeah, great to have you as well. I know you just recently moved to Colorado so I know that you know moving has its own kind of challenges. Absolutely. Yeah, very good. For those who heard the podcast before and or those who have not just to set the context again can you go back to 1999 and share where you were and what you were doing it back to them.
Yeah, thank you so i really vividly remember that even the exact date it was the ninth of july nineteen ninety nine i was working as an emergency room physician and i really has been working since i finished medical school in nineteen ninety six.

[2:46] So for about two and a half years working in the ER, I never expected to leave Libya.
And then one day I came home and found my father in front of the door, very, very anxious.
And he just gave me a bunch of cash and he said, you have to leave the country immediately because your name came as somebody who needs to be arrested and thrown in jail for humanitarian activities.

[3:10] So, wow. Wow, number one, of course you remember the exact day.
And we’ll get to the story of your leaving in a minute, but can you say a little bit more about what humanitarian activities were you involved with at that time?
Libya was really under lots of secrecy. I would say it was mainly controlled by power and you cannot voice your opinion if you disagree with the government in a nonviolent way.
So some of my friends who happened to be physicians, they started a movement that I was not part of and that movement they wanted to do lots of psychosocial education, capacity building, raising the standards of living for taking care of the orphans, the widows, and just trying to educate people.
And I ended up taking care of their families when they were arrested and some of them were executed. So doing these humanitarian activities for on behalf of somebody else just labeled me as maybe empathizing with that movement and maybe I was part of a regime that wanted to take over the country. Yeah I just want to pause there and kind of drink that in. It’s when you say that these, are people that you’re involved with and they were executed just because of that humanitarian effort.

[4:35] Your, as we talked about, your work in trauma comes from your own experience, obviously.

[4:41] Absolutely, yeah. You have lots of exposure to the trauma story and I try to, you know, make my trauma a source of inspiration so I can heal myself and everybody around me.
Did you leave that night when your father gave you the cash?
Yeah, I left immediately. He even didn’t give me time to say goodbye to the rest of the family.
I only had time to say goodbye to him and to my mom and then my brother was living in another city. So I had to, Go and hide in his house for a number of days before leaving the country as we heard about, In the previous podcast. I know that you were then in malta awaiting asylum statuses outright in the UK.

[5:28] Yeah, I was waiting for a way to enter the United Kingdom and apply for a visa there.
And my uncle was living in the UK at the moment and I applied for a visitor visa.
And then I applied for asylum when I entered England. And as you and I were chatting about before, you weren’t able to actually do any kind of clinical work. Just never got the ability to be able to do that in England.
And then the next sort of chapters that you became married and then came to the United States.
Yeah, I mean, so when I applied for asylum, the immigration judge, he said, Omar, I cannot approve your application because there is no evidence of physical torture on my body. And this is what we usually do and discriminate against the psychosocial wounds and scars caused by trauma. So I told him He cannot see my mental scars and my trauma story.
And he said that that’s something he cannot go by.
He needs to see a physical evidence.

[6:31] And so he dismissed my case. And I was about actually to be deported back to Libya when I met a Libyan American, my wife and ended up here in Colorado.
Yeah. And I know that you just look at your website.
That whole concept of the hidden scars is a is very prominent.
And to really illuminate to all of us and the rest of the world that trauma is.
Not only often, but predominantly these hidden scars, not just the physical ones.
Yeah, and really what I’m very passionate about is to break any cycle of dysfunction caused by trauma, not only for the individual, but also for the family and the community.
Because many times trauma has the power to either make or break someone, and we have the decision and we have the choice to what to do with our trauma story.
You adapted, you were resilient and you moved into whatever you can do.
So not only to create a life for yourself here in the United States, also just to take that work.

[7:38] And bring your thinking and your ideas to the rest of the world around that.
Talking about trouble.
Yeah, and you know, I cannot take the credit myself. Of course, there are many, many people who were very instrumental in my healing.
And whenever people ask me, how did I survive? Or how did I keep my sanity throughout all of this?
I mean, I really did four things. One is to lean on my faith and then to love my family, then to practice lots of gratitude and finally to engage in acts of service.
So I love to go to a refugee camps and, you know, go to people who are forgotten, voiceless people who are traumatized and living on the margins of society and try to amplify their voice.
Yeah, the skills that you just said, those four skills are in one shape, way, shape or form are often sort of discussed as ways of building resilience.

[8:38] I’m impressed that that came to you early to be able to kind of employ those.
Yeah, I mean, I remember like one day I was sitting in Libya in 2011, this is after my return, after 12 years in exile.
And then, you know, I just was thinking of the impact of trauma on everybody around me and on me as a wounded healer myself.
And then I built something called Untangled, which is, you know, a model of care.
Just I can go into Untangled if you like. It’s just five different components of healing.
Yeah, maybe we can come back to that, but as you brought up returning to Libya, that’s, kind of where I wanted to go next anyway.
So, and that’s the part that piqued my interest when I was listening to RX for Success, is that piece of not having been there for 12 years and then actually going back to a, now, a country that’s in civil war, correct?
Absolutely.

[9:38] Yeah. So I’m going to just play that segment from our Expert Success podcast that talks about that and then we can kind of talk about that just a little bit more.
If you previously had to leave the country under threat of death, I have to imagine that in this new circumstance with the raging civil war, it must have been at least equally and probably more dangerous for you during that time.
So can you just talk about that, give us some details about what that was like?
It was very, very interesting because both Libya and Egypt were going through the same at the same time.
So the border between the two countries was extremely open and that has advantages for some people like me who can enter their home country after all these years.
At the same time, there are disadvantages because anybody can cross the border, including, unfortunately, extremist groups and…
People who might be mercenaries and so on. So it was extremely dangerous, I agree with you. So the first trip, it was just my main mission was to make sure my family is okay and do some psychosocial education because psychiatry and mental health is not something that will celebrate it there.

[11:04] So first of all, just any reflections on hearing that again? Yeah, I mean it makes me emotional every time because I don’t know if you know but when the war started on the 17th of February 2011 for the first few days of the war Mr Gaddafi decided to basically block any access for any kind of media so no tv no radio no social media so I was not even able to reach my family and there, were reports of him going to wipe out the city of Benghazi where my whole family is so I was not able to reach my family for a number of days. I was extremely anxious having, you know, bad sleep.
And then one day I was able to reach my mom and she said, Omar, yes, what you are hearing is true.

[11:50] All of your family will die. But I wanted you to know that I love you. I’m proud of the things that you do and I’m going to see you again in heaven. And that gave me lots of trauma and PTSD, and many restless nights and you know nightmares so that was really the reason I decided to go even though it was extremely dangerous and leaving my wife and three children behind was not an easy decision but you know there was nothing else I could have done. Yeah and that’s kind of what I wanted to chat about just a little bit that’s very clearly not an easy decision. Can you say a little bit about what were some of the back and forth discussions in your head about do I go, do not go or was that even a an option not to go?
Yeah, I don’t think it was an option. I just, I was just feeling guilty if something happened to me.
At the same time, I’m rationalizing it by saying, you know, my wife has her whole family here in Colorado and, you know, my children can be raised by their grandparents and it’s not really easy decisions to discuss with your wife, but she was extremely supportive. She saw how restless I was and I needed closure and she is Libyan American.
She never saw Libya before. 2012, her father left the country in 1977, running away from the same Gaddafi regime.

[13:16] So she said, Omar, I know this is very difficult for me, but I know it’s more difficult for you and you’re not going to forgive me or forgive yourself if you don’t go.
So she allowed me to go and I’m forever grateful that she did that and that my mom survived and that I was able to do something to heal my country.
Hi, I’m Rhonda Crowe, founder and CEO for MD Coaches.
Here on RX for Success, we interview a lot of great medical professionals on how they grew their careers, how they overcame challenges, and how they handle day-to-day work.
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Support you need today, visit us at MyMDCoaches.com to schedule your complementary consultation.
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[14:43] We’ll get back to our interview in just a moment. But right now I want to tell you a little bit about Physician Outlook.
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And now let’s get back to today’s interview. And as you said, it wasn’t a difficult decision. It was just tough to sort of think about what, are the potential consequences of this decision. Was there anybody else besides your wife that.

[16:04] Was helpful to you?
Yeah, I mean, it was my place of employment. So I was working at the hospital and they made sure that they have some time off.
I mean, after a few visits, they told me to make up my mind and make a decision, either my job or my family.
And I, of course, you know, chose my family and ended up going back and forth multiple times.
But really, I think when I reflect on that, I was not necessarily going to die for Libya My goal was to go and live for the country and try to rehabilitate and rebuild a destroyed country, not only destroyed physically, but mainly morally and every other aspect.
So even though many young Libyans were going to Libya with the intention to die, my intention was not to fight. Actually, a group of fighters came to me while I was doing psychosocial activities with orphan children.
And they said, Omar, you are a fighting age. You should be on the front lines.
And I told them taking care of these children is my front line.
I’m not going to have any blood on my hands. So I’m going to get to the border of Libya and you are, if I’m hearing you right, you went there predominantly to be with your family, but there’s also.

[17:23] You wanted to bring some of your work around trauma.
What came first, did you get together with your family or the work with the traumatized people?

[17:34] Yeah, I mean, as you know, the whole Arab Spring started in January of 2011, started with Tunisia, and then Egypt, and finally Libya. But when the war started in Libya, I was asking, what can I do for the country other than the psychosocial assistance? And one very big organization in Portland, Oregon, I reached out to, and they told me that they are willing to send you know, half a million dollar worth of medical equipments with me if I can fly to Egypt and I ended up Going with the boxes and they arrived into the Libyan hospitals on the front line of fighting, That was very helpful and saving lives So I’m very glad that they took part in that, you know saving lives not only physically but also hopefully, emotionally through psychosocial education and through trying to build something for a country that has been in the dark You know many people they only know Libya through knowing mr Gaddafi and the United States and Libya did not have the best relationship at that time, So when you arrived there when you want to bring that work that you did have Where did that land were we able to bring that work Libya at the time most of the East was quote-unquote Liberated the most of the West was still under the control of mr. Gaddafi.

[18:52] Between February 2011 until October when he died. This is actually the day that Tribboli was quote-unquote liberated was on, October 20th 2011 when he died this.

[19:05] Long eight months I was mainly working in the eastern part of the country because access to Tribboli was almost impossible What do they work look like? So where did you go to do the work? So the good news?
I mean there are many people who immediately are jumping into this kind of you know humanitarianism and altruism and trying to help their country in different ways.
And even there are non-government organizations coming from the West.
So I have seen like big names coming to Libyan.
They try to implement different programs. So I was basically doing my own work because I know the culture and the religion and the language. I was consulting with some of the non-government organizations.

[19:47] Making sure that what they do with good intention is not harmful.
And then whatever other way I can consulting with colleagues here back in the United States or consulting with people in Egypt and Syria and Tunisia.
It was a big moment and big movement and I try to just fill gaps anywhere I can.
Yeah, so some of it was kind of coordinated, but also were you doing clinical work with individuals and groups?
Yeah, so I was doing mainly a capacity building and this is through training of trainers and mainly with the fighters.
I mean, some people call them freedom fighters.
They started as people who are fighting for freedom and unfortunately, very quickly, some of them ended up joining militias and joining movements of terrorism and, you know, personal agendas and other countries entered Libya and became very chaotic very quickly.

[20:40] And unfortunately, the revolution that started very beautifully ended up with a very ugly civil war.
And I know that you were back and forth several times over the ensuing years doing that same kind of work in Libya.
I did, yeah. So I started two missions in 2011, and then I went back to 2012 and 2013.
So it was seven times in between I went to the Syrian Turkish border to work with the Syrian refugees.
I went to the Bangladeshi Burmese border to work with the Rohingya refugees fleeing Burma.
But actually my dream is to actually go every year.
Unfortunately, in 2016 I lost my mom and I haven’t been to Libya since that time just because I was very close to mom.
And a home without mom, I just cannot imagine that.
But really, I feel guilty about that too, because the country is still have very heavy and multiple wounds and I can contribute something.
So my plan is to for sure go next year. Well, you strike me as somebody who has a very large heart and very long arms to want to care for lots of people in lots of countries based on what you’re saying.
So that’s hard. That can be hard.

[22:01] It is hard, but I mean, if we don’t do something, nothing will be done.
And I believe that we have one life on this earth and then we’re going to face God and He’s going to question us what have we done with the life that He has given us.
And whenever I see a child in distress, I cannot rest.
And I want to be part of creating a safe world for my children and all children I view them as my children, even children who their fathers have died for Gaddafi and some of them are the reason that I left Libya in the first place.
It kind of moves us into another part of the discussion that I wanted to go to talk with you about.
Your most recent book is about the wounded healer and you know you’re a healer and a lot of people listening to this are healers and can you say a little bit about what is in that book and what messages you have for those of us who are doing the work that we do but especially the kind of work that you do.

[22:59] Yeah absolutely. So this is not necessarily because of the pandemic, but looks like the pandemic has left a very, very ugly, you know, bandaid on a bleeding and infected and, you know, deep wound that our country has been suffering from, which is a psychosocial impact of multiple traumas, you know, either on the individual level or a family trauma or systemic trauma and so on.
So I was writing in the Psychiatric Times, a number of articles, because a number of Some of my co-workers have either left medicine or nursing or social work or therapy and they couldn’t just take the burn out anymore.
Some of them were treating their moral injuries through substance use and self-medication and some of them unfortunately have died for suicide.

[23:45] So after two of my colleagues died by suicide, I couldn’t bear false witness anymore so I couldn’t remain silent and I was writing really heavily and then Norton, a publishing company, out to me and they said Omar can you just turn all of your writings into a book and, can you call it the wounded healer because we see this happening all over the country and I divided the book into four chapters.
The first chapter talks about the trauma that we sustain when we work with our clients.
The second one, the impact of burnout on our families. The third chapter, the trauma that caused by the system.
And the fourth one is inviting the wounded healer to actually look within and nurse their own wounds and honor their own trauma stories so it doesn’t get reactivated by listening to other people’s trauma stories.
And I wonder if there is a way for people, it sounds like there’s a lot of great information in that book and for people to be looking into that as a way, as an avenue towards their own healing.
Do you have some thoughts about how a healer might identify?

[24:54] That they are actually wounded. We tend to not be great at identifying what our feelings are and what we just sort of as a tribe if you will. Yeah I mean our wounds usually cause relational ruptures so it’s very important for you to notice your relationship with other people not with your patients, with your co-workers, mainly with your loved ones. So if you are shutting down or lashing out if you notice a change in your behavior or body language, your tone of voice, if people are giving you feedback, it will be important for you to listen to the feedback and lean on your support system.

[25:34] But what we learned, you know, in medical school at least, that our voices should not be heard, that our feelings don’t matter, that the customer is always right and the patient comes first.
And if I show any sign of emotions, that’s a sign of weakness and vulnerability is something we are scared of. So all of these we really need to unlearn because they are dysfunctional beliefs that are causing many, many people to suffer behind closed doors. And we are losing many, you know, of our coworkers to this silent pandemic. It is a worse pandemic than the global COVID-19 pandemic. And this is what I believe we are seeing the repercussions of, you know, the burnout pandemic through many, many, many of our coworkers leaving medicine and nursing.
So it was very important for me to really make sure that I speak up and make sure that I write about this and make sure that I build a curriculum model of care and give people the necessary tools and skills so they can overcome or at least cope with the burnout.
That’s great. I look forward to getting the book and reading it. It sounds like it’s rich with.

[26:40] Identifying the key pieces as well as the way out, the pathway out as well.
There’s something called the MBI which is the Burnout Inventory and you can basically just see that you are exhausted by the work that you do, not only your clinical work maybe you’re exhausted more by the work that you do in the community or with your family and the second one that you don’t see that any value in the work that you do and maybe you feel that all of your efforts are worthless and eventually you might actually just leave what you do or see your whole life without purpose and end up thinking about suicide or engaging in self-harm.
So these are very big warning signs if somebody is showing change in behavior, if they’re having strong symptoms, if they’re neglecting their basic needs, activities of daily living, if they’re using substance, if they’re having access to lethal means.
All of these are warning signs that maybe you are reaching a very high level of burnout and you need professional intervention.
And there is nothing shameful if you see a counselor or a psychiatrist.
It’s actually a sign of courage, not sign of weakness to speak up.
Yeah, thank you for that Omar. I love that you are articulating with warning signs that are common and for people to sort of really pay attention to those and then seek help.

[27:59] So thank you. There’s one other area that I know that I was curious about and you have a lot of energy around is this model of kind of intergenerational, if you will, trauma and the impact of it.
And I know you have a language around that called Untangled. I just wonder if you want to share a little bit about that and especially for our, you know, as we were just talking about for our listeners, you know, what happens if you don’t, you know, address the trauma, if you don’t address the I believe that most of our trauma happens because of relationships and most of our healing will happen if we heal our relationships So whenever there is a you know a rupture in the relationship, it should be followed with a repair So if you have a rupture in relationship with your spouse or your children I try to repair it as much as you can if there is room for healing.

[28:48] Forgiveness making amends closure all of these are very important and what I have noticed if you don’t you know nurse your own wounds they will bleed in different ways. So if you are not talking about your trauma story and chatting down in front of your family, trying not to burden them, actually your silence will be a more burden for them. And basically if you share aspects of your story, it might lighten their load and lighten yours as well but some of us unfortunately we actually Repeat the trauma story and there be the cycle of violence So we lash out and the easy target is our loved ones because most likely I cannot take my anger It was my supervisor or my co-workers So I will take it on my spouse or my children and that will end up with the marriage discord or a child abuse And maybe my children will walk on eggshells around me Maybe will feel restless when I enter the house and they can breathe easier when I leave the house All of these are toxic, you know and dysfunctional themes that I see and many people they see it as a normal and I.

[29:51] Very strongly believe that family dysfunction is abnormal There is nothing normal and having a toxic or dysfunctional family and we can always find room for healing.

[30:00] Even if it’s too late, you know, even if we just start today, that’s okay There is always room for healing better start late than never and maybe your loved ones are looking for the same healing that you are looking for maybe if you reach out today and show them some attention, appreciation and affection all of you can benefit. So I created Untangled which is a model of care that’s made of five components so very quickly the first one is the psychosocial education so we can fight the stigma and the taboo related to emotional expression and mental well-being. The second one is capacity building through training of trainers so we make sure that people can continue this work and the And the third one is building safe spaces for the community so we can have these difficult and healing conversations.

[30:46] And the fourth component is building resources, so maybe a community is asking for a hotline or a response team, whatever is missing that’s culturally appropriate.
And the last one is to build clinical services for somebody who might need that, actual medication management, psychotherapeutic intervention.
So these five components of Untangled were very very healing for the country of Libya and I was asked to replicate the model in Syria and then in Bangladesh and many refugee communities in North America.
So I have been very blessed that I replicated this model and became recognized and I published a book by the same title which is available for free. I can send electronic copies because it’s self-published.
The Wounded Healer is available like on Amazon and other bookstores.

[31:34] These two models can be the reason that people heal. I would really be grateful for that.
That’s great. And I know people can get hold of you and the other information that you have about, that through your website, which is…
Yeah, just dromareda.com, but also projectuntangled.org.

[31:57] Awesome. Well, this has been great to kind of deconstruct and, you know, flush out more of that story of those really challenging and not so challenging decisions, but still having to go through some of the pain of making a tough decision, returning to Libya and all the other things that we’ve talked about.
I just was curious, sort of one last question is, as you look back on that time in 2011 upon returning to Libya, what kind of learnings from that experience do you want to impart.

[32:32] To our listeners?
I always say I will not change anything about my trauma story.
At the same time, I think I can learn a few things from that.
I went to Libya without preparing myself or my children for them worrying about their So actually most of our family healing happened after I came back from Libya and started to engage in play and art therapy activities that brought lots of healing and bonding to our family and became a stronger and more resilient family because of our trauma story.
At the same time many people take sides in an armed conflict so I was very very glad even though some of my brothers they actually went into different sides of the conflict that I I stayed balanced and I saw there are wounds on both sides and I actually reached out to people who fought for and against Mr Gaddafi because all of them are Libyans and all of them loved Libya and they just have a different viewpoint. That’s why even in this country when people fight and after joining a political party we can all love our country and even with our disagreements. Which is a beautiful message for us to end on. I really really appreciate that.

[33:44] So Dr. Omar Rida, thank you so much for being with us on life changing moments.
There’s a lot of wisdom, a lot of sound practical advice for all of us. I really, really appreciate you coming back. Thank you, Dale. I mean, these changing moments are many, and I believe all of us, we have stories that are worth sharing. And I’m grateful for people.

[34:06] Like you who provide this platform. Here are my takeaways after talking with Dr.
Rita. Number one, life-changing moments each have their own velocity. Typically on this program we deconstruct an inflection point in which a significant amount of contemplation and processing occurs in order to arrive at a new place in life. I asked Dr. Rita to join me to explore his remarkable decision to go back to a country that…

[34:35] 12 years before, wanted to kill him. Unlike most of these branch points that we’ve explored here where there has been time to reflect, Dr. Rita only had hours to process and the pull was so strong to be with his family and help his native country that there really was no sense of choice about it.
Sometimes events around us create such a significant detour that we’re forced to adapt rapidly and reflect later.
Number two, don’t be afraid to use your experience as a launching point to help others.
Dr. Rita could have quietly adapted or maladapted to the trauma he experienced.
Instead, he did the hard work of healing the wounds and then created spaces for others to do the same.
His tireless work in raising awareness about non-physical trauma and doing amazing work on the community level to break the cycle of trauma is truly inspirational.

[35:31] Number three, the pandemic has also produced trauma and healthcare professionals have had some unique experiences in the middle of it that make us all at risk for burnout.
Dr. Rita invites us to be self-aware and look for symptoms such as nuanced set of relationship problems with colleagues, family or patients, feeling emotionally exhausted or feeling worthless like you’re no longer making a contribution.
And if you are feeling this way, seek help.
By making an appointment with a coach or mental health professional, you don’t need to feel this way and you don’t need to leave the profession to feel better.

[36:08] Music.

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